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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The Furious Puffin" data-source="post: 57564" data-attributes="member: 614">Re: Re: Don't Mind in the leastTo address you issues. B) Minions combo. I have never run bugbears in my game, but I can assure you by the time the party fighter has amassed the 8 feats need for this combo he will be unable to drop the the elite guard of the big boss they are facing in one hit as he would be level 6. Of course he could whirlwind twice or more times, and he would indeed get a lot of cleaves on the boss. But first he would have to spend at least two rounds surronded. This is likely to get him killed.If he surivives that he is welcome to the attacks, and deserves them for having the luck to survive that many grapple attempts. But I rarely run that sort of game (my player detest it) so it has not become an issue.15 attacks. Yeah nice if you can get it. However the situation is so *dire* for the player, or the enermies are so weak that I am not concerned. See - Whirlwind is a full round action. That means that to get these 15 attacks he has muscled in surviving AoOs, then been surronded for a round and not torn to peices or grappled (Which is what the bugbears would do). Harm delivered by a priest punching you is instant death. Harm wins on the DM worry stakes.The whirldwind combo is hard to set up, and the reason why I metioned the blinking mage thief. He can A) blink himself and run straight in and use haste to not have to wait for ages while getting sneak attack.A) The Bat thing. A seriously good question. I have no actual idea what I would do in that situation. It's never come up, and hopefully never would. I would most likely rule 0 that, like I would rules 0 Mr. Ginsu, the paladin shield smack or indeed anything else that comes off the smackdown pages ;-). Or have the bats not stand withing 5 feet on the fighter. (if the cavern holds a dragon, bats certainly will not fly need the fighter.)Of course remember whirldwind a full round action. The way the example you describe will unfold is - The fighter runs in an asks about bats.Dm: Dunno 'bout 50, and one big dragon.Fighter: I whirlwind agaist the bats getting a million cleave attacks on the dragonDm: *blinks* You can't - full round action, and you attract AoOs from the dragon, which deals vast amounts of damageFighter: Smeg!Dm: *Rolls to hit for the dragon.* The dragon then bites you with a harm spell precast. You die, no save.Fighter: AwwwwwwwBut more seriously, my solution is to make sure it never happens. Yeah whirldwind is stupid with the snails or other swarms of critters  (Bats for example). I would dispose of that option running with Caliban on the subject. Beyond that I don't really care for the reason outlined above. It is a stonklingly powerful attack, but considering the huge risks invovled the player is welcome to it.</blockquote>

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