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<blockquote data-quote="Lamoni" data-source="post: 1888169" data-attributes="member: 12680">Sorry, I had to step in here.&nbsp; I hate being told what I am saying when it isn't true.&nbsp; In the last thread on this topic that went on for several pages it was a recurring theme to say that people who didn't like it just didn't like cleave in general.Here is a situation.&nbsp; one fighter with great cleave, 8 orcs surrounding the fighter.&nbsp; On the fighters turn he kills orc1, cleaves, kills orc 2, cleaves, kills orc 3, cleaves.&nbsp; Even if he kills all 8 orcs on his turn he is still limited by his BAB for his number of attacks against any one orc.Let's say his BAB is +5.&nbsp; If he ever misses an orc, his attacks stop.&nbsp; He can never get a second attack against an orc in one round without that orc doing something stupid and provoking an attack of opportunity.&nbsp; Now let's say his BAB is +16.&nbsp; He can never get more than 4 attacks against a single opponent unless that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity.Okay, I have ignored Cleaving off of AoO's until now.&nbsp; But as you can see by the above, I have no problem with Cleave working to make extra attacks when you kill an enemy.&nbsp; How it works above is how I feel it should work.Now let's allow cleaving off of AoO's.&nbsp; Fighter (level 3) attacks on his turn and hits Orc1 (level 5).&nbsp; Orc 2 drinks potion, fighter makes AoO, kills him and attacks Orc1 again.&nbsp; Orc3 drinks potion, fighter makes AoO, kills him and attacks Orc1 again.&nbsp; Orc 4 does the same thing and fighter is finally able to kill off Orc1 after 4 attacks in one round.&nbsp; Granted, this is a hypothetical situation and would never come up in actual play.I know people doing stupid things can make it harder for you.&nbsp; Without giving one of your wild examples of someone casting a fireball, explain the following example.&nbsp; Fighter with spiked chain is fighting a mummy who is within 5'.&nbsp; 10' away on the other side of a fighter there is a goblin who gets scared and runs away from the fight.&nbsp; Explain how that goblin really made it disadvantageous for the mummy so it makes sense to use the Cleave on AoO mechanic.&nbsp; If you can do that, you've earned yourself a cookie... and you might just convince me to want to use it too.&nbsp; If you can't come up with a convincing explanation, maybe at least you will have more respect for those that don't bother allowing it in their games.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lamoni, post: 1888169, member: 12680"] Sorry, I had to step in here. I hate being told what I am saying when it isn't true. In the last thread on this topic that went on for several pages it was a recurring theme to say that people who didn't like it just didn't like cleave in general. Here is a situation. one fighter with great cleave, 8 orcs surrounding the fighter. On the fighters turn he kills orc1, cleaves, kills orc 2, cleaves, kills orc 3, cleaves. Even if he kills all 8 orcs on his turn he is still limited by his BAB for his number of attacks against any one orc. Let's say his BAB is +5. If he ever misses an orc, his attacks stop. He can never get a second attack against an orc in one round without that orc doing something stupid and provoking an attack of opportunity. Now let's say his BAB is +16. He can never get more than 4 attacks against a single opponent unless that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity. Okay, I have ignored Cleaving off of AoO's until now. But as you can see by the above, I have no problem with Cleave working to make extra attacks when you kill an enemy. How it works above is how I feel it should work. Now let's allow cleaving off of AoO's. Fighter (level 3) attacks on his turn and hits Orc1 (level 5). Orc 2 drinks potion, fighter makes AoO, kills him and attacks Orc1 again. Orc3 drinks potion, fighter makes AoO, kills him and attacks Orc1 again. Orc 4 does the same thing and fighter is finally able to kill off Orc1 after 4 attacks in one round. Granted, this is a hypothetical situation and would never come up in actual play. I know people doing stupid things can make it harder for you. Without giving one of your wild examples of someone casting a fireball, explain the following example. Fighter with spiked chain is fighting a mummy who is within 5'. 10' away on the other side of a fighter there is a goblin who gets scared and runs away from the fight. Explain how that goblin really made it disadvantageous for the mummy so it makes sense to use the Cleave on AoO mechanic. If you can do that, you've earned yourself a cookie... and you might just convince me to want to use it too. If you can't come up with a convincing explanation, maybe at least you will have more respect for those that don't bother allowing it in their games. [/QUOTE]

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