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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1889449" data-attributes="member: 2011">Except that it is extremely EASY to set up those conditions.Are you saying that AoOs are RARE in DND?Not in our games.It is not a matter of doing something dumb.It is especially not a matter of someone doing something dumb in the Summon Monster tactic.It is 100% there if the caster gets the spell off (which is what usually happens in the game).In the Summon Monster tactic, the mid to high level fighter only misses on a 1. 95%.Next.In the Summon Monster tactic, the mid to high level fighter always takes out the 6 hit point Celestial Dog. 100%.Next.The ENTIRE point of this thread. Additionally, at least 75% of the melee fighters in our campaigns took this feat without setting up the Summon Monster tactic. If you want to set up that tactic though, it is 100%.Next.Oh, first you CLAIMED that AoOs are rare. Now you are claiming that having your AoO opportunity left is rare.Make up your mind.If your Wizard and Fighter are setting up the Summon Monster tactic, Combat Reflexes and Great Cleave are taken by the Fighter to make the broken tactic even MORE uber. 100%.Next.With the Summon Monster tactic, the Wizard casts the spell once the Fighter starts fighting the big bad guy. If they get separated, he does not send in the Celestial Dogs until after the Fighter is fighting the big bad guy again. Again, nearly 100%.Next.Let's take a generous 60% chance to miss the big bad guy. With 3 extra attacks, that would average 120% of a normal attack damage (not even counting criticals).With a 50% miss chance, that jumps to 150% average damage.Next.However, the point of this is to set up this tactic which makes many other feat options seem very weak.Plus, the Cleave feat is strong just on it's own without the tactic.Next.I just illustrated that with a single third level spell, a Wizard or Sorcerer can practically guarantee that the Fighter hits the big bad opponent and he can do it multiple times in a combat and multiple times in a day.95% * 120% damage on a 40% hit chance (higher with a higher hit chance) = 114% average damage and 300% max damage of a normal hit. Effectively a free swing that usually hits on average whenever the Wizard wants with a single low level spell (for a high level Wizard).Setting up the tactic takes it from rare to common.Plus, the Fighter can do this tactic ANY TIME an opponent falls from an AoO, not just when the Wizard sends in the mooks.Bringing this up is a serious flaw in YOUR reasoning.Nobody said this. I only said to disallow feats that allow for an additional attack.If you start claiming that people are saying things that they did not say, then you start decreasing your own credibility.It is not instilling artificialness into the game system, it is fixing a broken mechanic. Anyone who says that any given mechanic is REQUIRED is the one instilling artificialness into the game system.No game mechanic is required and the fact that you cannot see that illustrates that you are more of a rules lawyer than a rules balance observer.Any time a game mechanic can easily be abused within the normal rules, then it is broken. And, we are not talking about really watering down Cleave as a feat. You have just pointed out that without the tactic, dropping an opponent with AoO Cleave should be rare. If it is rare, then taking it away SHOULDN'T be a big deal. But for you, it still is. Hmmmm.Make up your mind. Either AoO Cleave is rare and hence, it is no big deal to take it away. Or, AoO Cleave is common and it is more of a balance issue.But as is, you are sounding like a rules lawyer, more worried about what is written in the book as opposed to what has the potential for extreme unbalance.</blockquote>

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