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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Storyteller01" data-source="post: 1889687" data-attributes="member: 20931">The first situation smacks of trying to explain away metagaming. The wizard (or other spellcaster) knows what to expect from the summoned critters, whether he can control them or not. That's why said wizard summoned them to begin with. The fact that the creatures 'just happened to attack' or 'aren't that smart' doesn't make the spellcaster any less responsible <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />For the second quote, that really depends on the DM and the higher ups involved. Also depends on why you're summoning them (defense, letting their demonic nature out for some fun, whatever...). You sommon good creatures to kill an evil creature (or vice versa), then take shots at them yourselves? Seem like a waste of resources (especially if they all attack. You get flanking bonuses, and the attacks don't stop if you miss) and just insulting (biting the hand that feeds you). Again, it's the RP in me.It's the same as the old 2e arguement of summoning creatures 'so I can kill them for the exp'. All three examples boil down to the same arguement: What was the intent of the caster/player? regardless, it's still a problem for the DM, not a reason for a new or more complicated mechanic.Besides, as mentioned earlier (getting back to the cleave thing). Fights aren't fair, and the Cleave rule in conjunction with AoO's is not a tragic abuse. If someone's actions got you hurt or killed, well... welcome to life. Sh** happens. You've learned your lesson. Now fight smarter, not harder. If you use ranged weapons, Cleave is no longer an issue. If you have a group of opponents, USE GROUP TACTICS! Get Spring Attack for hit and run maneuvers. Come in one at a time so no one is in range for a cleave if the fighter does succedd on an AoO. If you can't do that, then hit him 2 at a time, and let him waste his time chasing you. Let the opponents get AoO's on the character. Wizards, STAY OUT OF COMBAT RANGE!! If you want to slice and dice with the big boys, it's your own fault for getting clocked or killed.If your players are using loopholes, patch them. WotC can't, unless you want a new edition with more complicated rules every year or so.Again, common sense applies...</blockquote>

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