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Cleaving after an AoO
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<blockquote data-quote="Philip" data-source="post: 1890895" data-attributes="member: 10993"><p>I don't think AoO+Cleave is broken, I do think can lead to weird and uncinematic scenes, and I also think it is "unfair". I will try to explain what I feel is unfair about (more so than other feats, insta-kill spells etc.):</p><p></p><p>Joe the Fighter is facing three goblins, Arg, Bork and Chell. Joe has the initiative and attacks and kills Arg. He then takes a Cleave attack at Bork. Bork goes down without yelling "unfair"! Why? Because Bork was glad Joe the Fighter attacked Arg first, because Joe could just a easily attacked him. Joe improved Bork's chances of survival by attacking Arg first. And certainly Chell is not protesting, happy as he is with Joe's order of attacks!</p><p></p><p>Same setup only now the goblins have initiative. Bork realizes Joe the Fighter can kill them without breaking a sweat and plans to use a Withdraw action and move back into the goblin warrens. Unfortunately the foolish Arg loses his composure and runs away, inviting an AoO. What could have been an easy getaway turns into death as Joe attacks, kills Arg and Cleaves into Bork. Now Bork dies with the yell "unfair" on his lips. Why? Because Joe wasn't able to hit him, shouldn't be able to hit him, and now just because Ark lets down his guard, he's dead as well.</p><p></p><p>With a regular Cleave, the danger to Bork was already there, and being Cleaved is actually fortunate, because the originating attack could just as well be aimed at you. Cleave on AoO creates a danger to Bork where there was none, and there is nothing he can do about it.</p><p></p><p>Unfairness of AoO+Cleave:</p><p>1. A risk created 'out of thin air'</p><p>2. No way to avoid it</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Philip, post: 1890895, member: 10993"] I don't think AoO+Cleave is broken, I do think can lead to weird and uncinematic scenes, and I also think it is "unfair". I will try to explain what I feel is unfair about (more so than other feats, insta-kill spells etc.): Joe the Fighter is facing three goblins, Arg, Bork and Chell. Joe has the initiative and attacks and kills Arg. He then takes a Cleave attack at Bork. Bork goes down without yelling "unfair"! Why? Because Bork was glad Joe the Fighter attacked Arg first, because Joe could just a easily attacked him. Joe improved Bork's chances of survival by attacking Arg first. And certainly Chell is not protesting, happy as he is with Joe's order of attacks! Same setup only now the goblins have initiative. Bork realizes Joe the Fighter can kill them without breaking a sweat and plans to use a Withdraw action and move back into the goblin warrens. Unfortunately the foolish Arg loses his composure and runs away, inviting an AoO. What could have been an easy getaway turns into death as Joe attacks, kills Arg and Cleaves into Bork. Now Bork dies with the yell "unfair" on his lips. Why? Because Joe wasn't able to hit him, shouldn't be able to hit him, and now just because Ark lets down his guard, he's dead as well. With a regular Cleave, the danger to Bork was already there, and being Cleaved is actually fortunate, because the originating attack could just as well be aimed at you. Cleave on AoO creates a danger to Bork where there was none, and there is nothing he can do about it. Unfairness of AoO+Cleave: 1. A risk created 'out of thin air' 2. No way to avoid it [/QUOTE]
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