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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1891758" data-attributes="member: 2011">Before you said that AoO Cleave is rare.Now you are saying that AoO Cleave becomes even rarer as you go up levels.So, how does taking a minor rare element out of the game in order to prevent some abusive tactics hinder the feat if the AoO Cleave combination with it is so rare (and becomes rarer)?You keep avoiding that question.I think your campaigns are different than ours.Nearly every melee fighter (barbarian, etc.) in our games has taken Cleave. Virtually every one (in fact, I cannot think of one who has not). Non-melee fighter (e.g. bowmen), sure. They do not take it. But melee fighters almost always take it (at least in our games).At low level, about one successful attack in two will result in it occuring. This typically happens every three to four rounds.At high level, that drops to about one successful attack in six (and even more often if the spell casters soften up the opposition first), but even so, that is often an extra attack every two to four rounds (if you consider full round attacks once fighters get into range). In fact, it tends to happen more at higher level than lower level due to more versatility of party tactics (more options, more opportunities which offsets somewhat the greater number of hit points for enemies).And, fighters go out of their way to get it to work. I have often seen them attack the wounded guy first, even if he has a higher AC, just to get the chance to get in the extra free attack.I think you must not have actually seen Cleave / Great Cleave in action. The practice really does not match the theory.It is extremely useful, even at high level.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 1891758, member: 2011"] Before you said that AoO Cleave is rare. Now you are saying that AoO Cleave becomes even rarer as you go up levels. So, how does taking a minor rare element out of the game in order to prevent some abusive tactics hinder the feat if the AoO Cleave combination with it is so rare (and becomes rarer)? You keep avoiding that question. I think your campaigns are different than ours. Nearly every melee fighter (barbarian, etc.) in our games has taken Cleave. Virtually every one (in fact, I cannot think of one who has not). Non-melee fighter (e.g. bowmen), sure. They do not take it. But melee fighters almost always take it (at least in our games). At low level, about one successful attack in two will result in it occuring. This typically happens every three to four rounds. At high level, that drops to about one successful attack in six (and even more often if the spell casters soften up the opposition first), but even so, that is often an extra attack every two to four rounds (if you consider full round attacks once fighters get into range). In fact, it tends to happen more at higher level than lower level due to more versatility of party tactics (more options, more opportunities which offsets somewhat the greater number of hit points for enemies). And, fighters go out of their way to get it to work. I have often seen them attack the wounded guy first, even if he has a higher AC, just to get the chance to get in the extra free attack. I think you must not have actually seen Cleave / Great Cleave in action. The practice really does not match the theory. It is extremely useful, even at high level. [/QUOTE]

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