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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Abraxas" data-source="post: 1893876" data-attributes="member: 1266">Choosing to use any feat could be seen as meta gaming - The character knows exactly what his abilities do in the game world.  How is developing a useful strategy based on those abilities somehow unacceptable meta gaming compared to things like having your character jump off a 100 foot cliff because you know it won't kill him unless you suffer 50 or more points damage and fail a massive damage save? (I don't think jumping off the cliff is unacceptable - its part of the game world).  My opposition to the AoO/Cleave bit has nothing to do with metagaming either.  But it wouldn't be a disadvantage to the BBEG.  He summons them to a point behind himself and as they move past him he AoOs them before our stalwart fighter ally gets a shot at them and uses his great cleave feat to smack the fighter, immediately after which he gets his full attack action.  So no one summons creatures unless they have one hundred percent control over them?  They still serve a purpose - attack the BBEG.  The fact that the summoned creatures behavior is completely predictable (if not controllable) is a fact of the spell, something the caster would definitely know.  The fact that this presents a useful strategy isn't (and shouldn't be) beyond the comprehension of the caster.   As shown above - the BBEG is going to kill his own summoned creature before our fighter ally gets a shot at them.  Except that your AC penalty is a more complicated house rule that will have greater repercussions.  What type of creatures can cause this AC penalty? What happens when the party gangs up on a lone opponent? Do they cause an AC penalty because of the distraction? etc, etc.  No AoO/Cleave is a simpler solution.  From a character perspective its definitely using tactics - the characters don't know its a loophole, they just know this is how things work.  As for actions that aren't focused on the players, well most players avoid taking AoOs like the plague, so those actions aren't focused on the players anyways.  In game terms it isn't a nonsensical advantage and could definitely be a sound tactic.  As for your real world examples - well they're just silly.  Your police officer isn't going to attack the k-9 cause 1) he doesn't have cleave, not to mention 2)probably can't drop it with one shot, 3)it probably has a better chance of incapacitating the mugger than he does and 4)doesn't just go poof because it isn't really dead.  The same with your riot police - they aren't going to off a fellow officer.  Actually this is the only thing that isn't silly - the fighter isn't going to off another PC cause that has real consequences - if he drops his ally he actually kills him.  Summoned creatures aren't really killed - they're just gone.  Using this tactic is thinking outside the box - what are you trying to say here?  It doesn't say anything about the players other than they have figured out a tactic that may or may not be useful.  Unless you are going to dictate consequences for every condition under which creatures are summoned then there are going to be none.  Are you going to have your higher ups whip the players for using summoned creatures to trigger traps?  How about fighting creatures they have no chance of defeating?  The summon Monster spells summon cannon fodder, thats it - they willingly throw themselves to their death for you with absolutely no regard for themselves.  How that death occurs doesn't enter into the equation.  Hell, if your fighter ally is a psychotic nut that likes fighting and has you summon critters to attack him so he can get in some between adventure practice I'm fine with that.  He doesn't actually kill them and they are doing exactly what the spell summons them for. You know what though?  None of this really matters.As I said before I don't think an advantage obtained because one opponent let his guard down should be available against one who didn't.  Its that simple.  None of the commentary above changes that in any way. Oh, and I would have had a bunch of smileys throughout this post but none of the drop down menus work anymore in the window where I compose my posts - if anyone has an idea why this is I would really like to know.</blockquote>

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