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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 1896714" data-attributes="member: 2011">No, you did not understand the point from your response here.The point was that in &quot;real combat&quot;, a combat sequence that could be done with a &quot;cleave manuever through an opponent&quot; should also be possible without an opponent standing there. You should be able to make the exact same set of combat moves, regardless of whether someone is standing there or not to &quot;cleave through&quot;.Since that attack is not possible with a cleave maneuver if nobody is there, it shouldn't be possible with a cleave maneuver if somebody is there, specifically in the AoO case where an attack on the primary character is possible or not dependent on the actions of a secondary character.In simpler terms, if an asteroid is heading towards the Earth, you can fire a missile at it. If an asteroid is not heading towards the Earth, in real life, you could still fire a missile at that same location. In the game, if the asteroid is not there, you cannot fire the missile (i.e. if you do not get an AoO, you cannot get the Cleave from it).The game rules prevent you from getting Cleave attacks without a trigger, they should prevent it with a trigger (because the trigger should not change the circumstances of combat).I hope this made it clearer for you, but I suspect not.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 1896714, member: 2011"] No, you did not understand the point from your response here. The point was that in "real combat", a combat sequence that could be done with a "cleave manuever through an opponent" should also be possible without an opponent standing there. You should be able to make the exact same set of combat moves, regardless of whether someone is standing there or not to "cleave through". Since that attack is not possible with a cleave maneuver if nobody is there, it shouldn't be possible with a cleave maneuver if somebody is there, specifically in the AoO case where an attack on the primary character is possible or not dependent on the actions of a secondary character. In simpler terms, if an asteroid is heading towards the Earth, you can fire a missile at it. If an asteroid is not heading towards the Earth, in real life, you could still fire a missile at that same location. In the game, if the asteroid is not there, you cannot fire the missile (i.e. if you do not get an AoO, you cannot get the Cleave from it). The game rules prevent you from getting Cleave attacks without a trigger, they should prevent it with a trigger (because the trigger should not change the circumstances of combat). I hope this made it clearer for you, but I suspect not. [/QUOTE]

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