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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IanB" data-source="post: 5572614" data-attributes="member: 1473">Your tone makes it really hard for me to want to continue this discussion with you. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/erm.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":erm:" title="Erm    :erm:" data-shortname=":erm:" />But, I will say that if you stack warlords up next to the strength cleric I totally agree that there's no comparison to be made. They didn't nerf the strength cleric, though; actually arguably they buffed it slightly by changing some implement powers to weapon powers.The devoted cleric still remains in the acceptable range of performance. I healed or prevented something like 800 points of damage in a fight this weekend, without using a daily power - I may actually be lowballing that, I haven't sat down to figure it out exactly. I'm guessing that's going to be competitive with what a similar warlord would have brought to the table in terms of actual contribution, if not in terms of making the battle take less time. Group composition matters a whole lot when you're making the comparison, if nobody in your group has a sexy basic attack then the warlord's attack granting powers lose a lot of luster*. I'm also in a group where 3 of the 5 characters are Con primary or secondary, so we have dozens of surges with high values, the cleric really shines in that sort of setup.And hey, our DM can use more than a handful of minions again without me killing them without having to bother rolling a die, which I'm going to file under  "good for the game."*Breaking this point out as it isn't really relevant to how most groups play the game, but the warlord can get to be pretty unimpressive in a group with less than the normal amount of players - I played one in a group with only 3 players and there were a few cases where powers that would be great with 5 (the shot that gives everyone +stat to damage but is only [W] for the warlord for example) ended up being terrible compared to what would otherwise be subpar options (risky shot in this particular case - the +7 damage on risky shot was more than the +6 that the other one could possibly have added if both other PCs hit.)</blockquote>

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