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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DEFCON 1" data-source="post: 7395310" data-attributes="member: 7006">Painting landscapes are not a part of the job selling cars, and thus the analogy breaks down.  A more applicable one would be whether a car dealer continues to employ someone whose sole job it is to do the paperwork on sold cars.  They aren't on the showfloor doing what we typical think is the *primary* part of "selling cars"... but their duty is an intricate part of the entire process that has to be done.  And thus that person still gets to keep their job even though they aren't "selling cars" per se. Again with the black-and-white.  "...if all your character wants to do is plant flowers?"  Who said anything about ONLY planting flowers?  I certainly didn't.  I said if the player could JUSTIFY why planting flowers *could* fall under Gruumsh's tenets, then it makes sense for the DM to go along with it.  The fact that you now want to turn into an absolute says quite a lot about your particular DMing style and attitude.Okay then...The scenario is:What happens if the group comes across a group of orcs invaders slaughtering innocents, elven or otherwise? If the cleric helps the innocents, they're pretty clearly violating the will of Gruumsh. If they help slaughter the innocents, in my opinion they've crossed into CE territory.If the DM wishes to give his cleric player this moral quandry, then the answer seems pretty simple to me... the player makes a choice for how their PC reacts and then tries to atone for it after the fact if such an atonement is necessary or possible.If that means the player helps her party members against the orcs and Gruumsh gets angry... she made her choice for her character and can deal with the consequences.  Exactly the same the other way around if she turns on the party and helps the orcs.  Or perhaps the half-orc just remains completely out of the situation altogether?But here's the thing... the DM in this situation did not FORCE the player into conflict.  The DM put up a scenario and let the PLAYER choose how to react to it, and then how they and the party dealt with the aftermath.  But what the DM didn't do was force the half-orc into having "dreams" about wearing the elf's ears as a necklace, or having spell failures occur on spells that help the elf just "because".  Things that the half-orc player has no control over.This is entirely a shades-of-grey situation.  And in my opinion should be treated as such, and not just go to the extreme no matter what someone puts up as a possible reason.</blockquote>

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