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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7405973" data-attributes="member: 82106">Sort of like certain real-world situations (but lets not go there) where we have people that are 'DEFINITELY EVIL' in the eyes of those who have everything, while they have nothing. YES, it tends to breed a form of moral stunting, being relegated to the fringes of the world where everyone hopes you will just shut up and quietly expire. When instead you get PISSED and start a murder spree, well your just EEEEEVVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLL! Now, I think that its reasonable to look at orcs as 'fallen'. They may or may not have been nice guys back when Gruumsh got cheated out of a nice spot in the cosmos, but they could have taken a higher moral path, and they didn't. That doesn't make the elves and dwarves blameless, nor make the orcs any less victims (at least in that telling of the story, whether its the whole truth is another question). It would be possible, for example, to see Gruumsh as actually being a less morally corrupt orcish paragon. Yes, he believes in strength over all, and knows that he isn't going to get what he wants except by fighting, but maybe he actually doesn't espouse WANTON violence, only a sort of 'Klingon-esque' sort of &quot;brutal realism&quot;. Maybe his priests actually kill (and eat) elvish prisoners MERCIFULLY! Who knows? I mean, I think the sort of 'default' assumption is more like cartoon evil, but I don't think you have to rewrite any of the material to read a little more into it and take it as mostly one side's story.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7405973, member: 82106"] Sort of like certain real-world situations (but lets not go there) where we have people that are 'DEFINITELY EVIL' in the eyes of those who have everything, while they have nothing. YES, it tends to breed a form of moral stunting, being relegated to the fringes of the world where everyone hopes you will just shut up and quietly expire. When instead you get PISSED and start a murder spree, well your just EEEEEVVVVVVIIIIIILLLLLLL! Now, I think that its reasonable to look at orcs as 'fallen'. They may or may not have been nice guys back when Gruumsh got cheated out of a nice spot in the cosmos, but they could have taken a higher moral path, and they didn't. That doesn't make the elves and dwarves blameless, nor make the orcs any less victims (at least in that telling of the story, whether its the whole truth is another question). It would be possible, for example, to see Gruumsh as actually being a less morally corrupt orcish paragon. Yes, he believes in strength over all, and knows that he isn't going to get what he wants except by fighting, but maybe he actually doesn't espouse WANTON violence, only a sort of 'Klingon-esque' sort of "brutal realism". Maybe his priests actually kill (and eat) elvish prisoners MERCIFULLY! Who knows? I mean, I think the sort of 'default' assumption is more like cartoon evil, but I don't think you have to rewrite any of the material to read a little more into it and take it as mostly one side's story. [/QUOTE]

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