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Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)
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<blockquote data-quote="merwins" data-source="post: 7595072" data-attributes="member: 6829883"><p>Background info ... please feel free to cite any other factors that may be relevant to the discussion. </p><p></p><p>Cleric, page 58: </p><p>"You prepare the list of cleric spells..." </p><p>"Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation..." </p><p>"The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity." </p><p></p><p>Weave of Magic, page 205: </p><p>"...divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power--gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath." </p><p></p><p>Augury, page 215-216: </p><p>"You receive an omen from an otherworldly entity." </p><p></p><p>Divination, page 234: </p><p>"Your magic and an offering put you in contact with a god or god's servants." </p><p></p><p>Commune, page 223: </p><p>"You contact your deity or a divine proxy..." </p><p></p><p>Here are several thoughts, and I'd love to hear some counterpoints/riffs: </p><p></p><p>1) </p><p>Faith is the source of the cleric's spellcasting power. Divine forces may "mediate" (allow, negate, tamper with) their access to the weave, but the power lies with the cleric. This is how you get factions within a church, and heretics. Even if God A denies you access to the weave, God B may enable it as furthering God B's cause. The cleric can't show, on a spell-by-spell basis, that their power is enabled by their god, because it isn't. THEY are the source of their own power. </p><p></p><p>2) </p><p>Augury, Divination, and Commune are all (nearly) cleric-exclusive, but their wording is very different as to their source of information. </p><p>ONLY COMMUNE is a response from "your god or a divine proxy." </p><p></p><p>The other two are not specific to your character's religion. </p><p>Divination only gets a response from "a god." Hopefully, your god is paying attention to you, but RAW, that's not required. </p><p>Augury is an "otherworldly entity," which, for all you know, could be a mind flayer on a different plane or in a pocket dimension. Surprise! <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/nervous.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":heh:" title="Nervous Laugh :heh:" data-shortname=":heh:" /></p><p></p><p>It could be that these are inadvertent typos or accommodations. Let's assume they're not. </p><p></p><p>There are some ways to mitigate the situation for Divination (only). </p><p></p><p>Augury, you're just kinda boned. At the mercy of a well-intentioned universe. Or at least an attentive deity. </p><p></p><p>Divination could be made into specific spells PER DEITY. So when you find a scroll, it might be Divination (Odin). </p><p>Or it could be that Divination simply comes with a <insert deity name> section. The spell is generic, but you make it unique when you cast it. This would accommodate Druid castings in a clean way. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, before this gets much longer... thoughts?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="merwins, post: 7595072, member: 6829883"] Background info ... please feel free to cite any other factors that may be relevant to the discussion. Cleric, page 58: "You prepare the list of cleric spells..." "Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation..." "The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity." Weave of Magic, page 205: "...divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power--gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath." Augury, page 215-216: "You receive an omen from an otherworldly entity." Divination, page 234: "Your magic and an offering put you in contact with a god or god's servants." Commune, page 223: "You contact your deity or a divine proxy..." Here are several thoughts, and I'd love to hear some counterpoints/riffs: 1) Faith is the source of the cleric's spellcasting power. Divine forces may "mediate" (allow, negate, tamper with) their access to the weave, but the power lies with the cleric. This is how you get factions within a church, and heretics. Even if God A denies you access to the weave, God B may enable it as furthering God B's cause. The cleric can't show, on a spell-by-spell basis, that their power is enabled by their god, because it isn't. THEY are the source of their own power. 2) Augury, Divination, and Commune are all (nearly) cleric-exclusive, but their wording is very different as to their source of information. ONLY COMMUNE is a response from "your god or a divine proxy." The other two are not specific to your character's religion. Divination only gets a response from "a god." Hopefully, your god is paying attention to you, but RAW, that's not required. Augury is an "otherworldly entity," which, for all you know, could be a mind flayer on a different plane or in a pocket dimension. Surprise! :heh: It could be that these are inadvertent typos or accommodations. Let's assume they're not. There are some ways to mitigate the situation for Divination (only). Augury, you're just kinda boned. At the mercy of a well-intentioned universe. Or at least an attentive deity. Divination could be made into specific spells PER DEITY. So when you find a scroll, it might be Divination (Odin). Or it could be that Divination simply comes with a <insert deity name> section. The spell is generic, but you make it unique when you cast it. This would accommodate Druid castings in a clean way. Anyway, before this gets much longer... thoughts? [/QUOTE]
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