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*Dungeons & Dragons
Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)
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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 7595529" data-attributes="member: 177"><p>Also note "the weave" is very specifically a Forgotten Realms concept, not a generic D&D one. </p><p></p><p>There is also a problem with saying "the power comes form the cleric" and then noting that without access to the weave, there is no spell to be had. That means there isn't one "the power" but several elements that comprise power, and the cleric doesn't have some of them innate to themselves.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And, your note that "faith" has had varying meanings over time means there are multiple definitions. The game writers are not, in general, professional philosophers, religious historians, or linguistic logicians, and being pedantic about the definition in a way the authors probably didn't intend is not rhetorically sound.</p><p></p><p>Yes, in our real history, folks may have practiced more in terms of piety than faith. But then, I don't think the gods of yore were handing out spells in our world, so the real-world historical religious form is perhaps not terribly relevant. If all that was required for clerical power was strict piety, then anyone who follows the forms strongly enough should get cleric spells. And that just doesn't work within the framework of the D&D game mechanics.</p><p></p><p>Do note that the cleric is not just J. Q. Public practitioner. They *do* have a personal relationship with a deity above and beyond that of the day-to-day worshiper/practitioner. Saying that relationship requires faith to support power is not terribly weird, either conceptually or linguistically. In a world where there is real power to be had from faithfulness, and there being many possible sources of that power, the question of loyalty and belief in that relationship seems appropriate. IN D&D worlds, your cleric's god is not the guy who you happen to pass a few words with in the office. Your cleric's god is more like the friend who will "help you move bodies" - you have faith that they will be there for you, and you are there for them in return. To someone else (with just some piety, and no real faith), your god is just the guy you pass friendly words with in the kitchen nook.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 7595529, member: 177"] Also note "the weave" is very specifically a Forgotten Realms concept, not a generic D&D one. There is also a problem with saying "the power comes form the cleric" and then noting that without access to the weave, there is no spell to be had. That means there isn't one "the power" but several elements that comprise power, and the cleric doesn't have some of them innate to themselves. And, your note that "faith" has had varying meanings over time means there are multiple definitions. The game writers are not, in general, professional philosophers, religious historians, or linguistic logicians, and being pedantic about the definition in a way the authors probably didn't intend is not rhetorically sound. Yes, in our real history, folks may have practiced more in terms of piety than faith. But then, I don't think the gods of yore were handing out spells in our world, so the real-world historical religious form is perhaps not terribly relevant. If all that was required for clerical power was strict piety, then anyone who follows the forms strongly enough should get cleric spells. And that just doesn't work within the framework of the D&D game mechanics. Do note that the cleric is not just J. Q. Public practitioner. They *do* have a personal relationship with a deity above and beyond that of the day-to-day worshiper/practitioner. Saying that relationship requires faith to support power is not terribly weird, either conceptually or linguistically. In a world where there is real power to be had from faithfulness, and there being many possible sources of that power, the question of loyalty and belief in that relationship seems appropriate. IN D&D worlds, your cleric's god is not the guy who you happen to pass a few words with in the office. Your cleric's god is more like the friend who will "help you move bodies" - you have faith that they will be there for you, and you are there for them in return. To someone else (with just some piety, and no real faith), your god is just the guy you pass friendly words with in the kitchen nook. [/QUOTE]
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