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Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7595593" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>So, the following represents how clerical magic works in D&D as I understand it:</p><p></p><p>1) Clerics have no magical ability in and of themselves. This is precisely why clerics can completely lose their magical ability. If clerical magical ability was simply concentrated force of will that they had honed in some fashion, then they could not have their power turned off nor would they need to prepare spells.</p><p></p><p>2) Clerics receive their spells from divine powers or their agents. The cleric requests the spell and then has it granted to them either directly from the divinity or else through some agent of the divinity. The spell is transferred from some being that can cast it to the cleric, thus the source of the power is not the cleric. The spell is received by the cleric in a revelatory fashion. The cleric need only finish the spell that has been placed in their mind through the divine revelation, and after words they no longer have the power or even the memory of the spell.</p><p></p><p>3) Because of this when a cleric uses a spell, they are not directly channeling the will of the divinity. No miracle actually takes place at the time the spell is cast and the divinity does not have the direct ability to decide how and when the spell is used. The actual miracle occurred when the cleric received the spell. As such, a cleric can use a spell for purposes that the divinity may not have approved of though this breach of trust, <strong>that is the deity's lost faith in the cleric's judgment</strong>, could be punished by future loss of communion and revelation.</p><p></p><p>4) Because the source of the magic is not the cleric's own ability, clerical magic can accomplish things that no mortal magic could actually accomplish. The reasons for the limitations on mortal magic are generally either not explained or else are explained in a setting specific fashion, but even if the cause is not explained it is clear that they are there because otherwise there would be more overlap between the arcane and divine spell-casting lists. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, the real distinction between an arcane and a divine spellcaster is whether or not the primary source of power is internal or external to the spell-caster. Divine spell-casters always get the majority of their magical ability from external sources, which is why they can lose access to it by breaking their bargains in some fashion.</p><p></p><p>5) Clerics receive spells from deities according to the deity's whims, with the particular conditions that they must satisfy varying from deity to deity. As an analogy, you can think of the deity logging into some supernatural website and downloading spells. ("Order of the Stick" actually uses this metaphor comically in world.) In order to log into the system, the cleric must know not only how to reach or contact the power source through prayers, but also must authenticate themselves in some way. That is to say, they have to be known to the divine powers and in good standing with them. For lawful deities, this probably means that they need to be ordained in some fashion and recognized by the clerical hierarchy - you can imagine that the cleric has their name in a book somewhere. For chaotic deities, this probably means that they have to be on friendly terms with the divine/supernatural personages that answer their requests. In any case, while receiving spells might involve some ritual, performance of that ritual alone in no way guarantees that you can get the spells. It's not a service available to everyone. Nor does the cleric have the right to demand spells because of some internal power. The basis of their access to spells is that they are in good standing with the powers that dispense them. Presumably, access to spells is limited solely because of lack of trust that the deity has in their servant and the limited ability of the deity (for whatever reason) to fulfill spell requests. The amount of trust that the servant has in the deity is in this setup meaningless, because its not normally a cleric asking for miraculous intervention and the deity has large but finite resources (for whatever reason). Giving spells to cleric involves some cost to the deity or to the deities even more limited agents. Maybe the spell comes from an agent that can only use that spell X times per day, and the transference of the spell means that the agent is now more limited in their ability to accomplish the deity's goals. </p><p></p><p>6) In this arrangement, there would be plenty of truly pious and faithful persons that would not be clerics, would not gain spells, and possibly could not gain spells. No matter how refined their spirit became, no matter how great their belief, no matter how faithfully they served, no matter how holy (or unholy) they were, no power would necessarily flow out. You might could create options for persons like that, but core D&D typically does not validate that sort of self-improvement as a valid path to spell-casting ability. See however the monk for an example of what in D&D self-improvement might possibly allow, at least by traditional mechanics.</p><p></p><p>7) Historically, there has been some limited discussion by D&D authors of clerics which are straying out of their defined role receiving spells from a source other than the one that they believe that they are receiving the spells from. That is to say, while the normal process of a cleric straying involve the deity getting locked out of access to their spells, in some rare occasions author's have played with the idea of a cleric being tempted to transfer allegiance to a different deity, occasionally without realizing that they've actually strayed and are now getting spells from a wholly new power source. However, it would I think be far from usual for this to occur, precisely because of the finite resources that D&D deities seem to be operating with. Thus, unless it suits the GM and story to think otherwise, I think you could be pretty sure that your Augury was being answered by some ally or servant of your chosen patron.</p><p></p><p>Putting this all together, I hope you see why I think it is utterly bizarre to speak of a D&D cleric having their Faith shaken, or using their faith to manifest something miraculous. The system really doesn't depend on the cleric's faith at all, except when anachronistically equating a religion with a "faith".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7595593, member: 4937"] So, the following represents how clerical magic works in D&D as I understand it: 1) Clerics have no magical ability in and of themselves. This is precisely why clerics can completely lose their magical ability. If clerical magical ability was simply concentrated force of will that they had honed in some fashion, then they could not have their power turned off nor would they need to prepare spells. 2) Clerics receive their spells from divine powers or their agents. The cleric requests the spell and then has it granted to them either directly from the divinity or else through some agent of the divinity. The spell is transferred from some being that can cast it to the cleric, thus the source of the power is not the cleric. The spell is received by the cleric in a revelatory fashion. The cleric need only finish the spell that has been placed in their mind through the divine revelation, and after words they no longer have the power or even the memory of the spell. 3) Because of this when a cleric uses a spell, they are not directly channeling the will of the divinity. No miracle actually takes place at the time the spell is cast and the divinity does not have the direct ability to decide how and when the spell is used. The actual miracle occurred when the cleric received the spell. As such, a cleric can use a spell for purposes that the divinity may not have approved of though this breach of trust, [b]that is the deity's lost faith in the cleric's judgment[/b], could be punished by future loss of communion and revelation. 4) Because the source of the magic is not the cleric's own ability, clerical magic can accomplish things that no mortal magic could actually accomplish. The reasons for the limitations on mortal magic are generally either not explained or else are explained in a setting specific fashion, but even if the cause is not explained it is clear that they are there because otherwise there would be more overlap between the arcane and divine spell-casting lists. Indeed, as far as I'm concerned, the real distinction between an arcane and a divine spellcaster is whether or not the primary source of power is internal or external to the spell-caster. Divine spell-casters always get the majority of their magical ability from external sources, which is why they can lose access to it by breaking their bargains in some fashion. 5) Clerics receive spells from deities according to the deity's whims, with the particular conditions that they must satisfy varying from deity to deity. As an analogy, you can think of the deity logging into some supernatural website and downloading spells. ("Order of the Stick" actually uses this metaphor comically in world.) In order to log into the system, the cleric must know not only how to reach or contact the power source through prayers, but also must authenticate themselves in some way. That is to say, they have to be known to the divine powers and in good standing with them. For lawful deities, this probably means that they need to be ordained in some fashion and recognized by the clerical hierarchy - you can imagine that the cleric has their name in a book somewhere. For chaotic deities, this probably means that they have to be on friendly terms with the divine/supernatural personages that answer their requests. In any case, while receiving spells might involve some ritual, performance of that ritual alone in no way guarantees that you can get the spells. It's not a service available to everyone. Nor does the cleric have the right to demand spells because of some internal power. The basis of their access to spells is that they are in good standing with the powers that dispense them. Presumably, access to spells is limited solely because of lack of trust that the deity has in their servant and the limited ability of the deity (for whatever reason) to fulfill spell requests. The amount of trust that the servant has in the deity is in this setup meaningless, because its not normally a cleric asking for miraculous intervention and the deity has large but finite resources (for whatever reason). Giving spells to cleric involves some cost to the deity or to the deities even more limited agents. Maybe the spell comes from an agent that can only use that spell X times per day, and the transference of the spell means that the agent is now more limited in their ability to accomplish the deity's goals. 6) In this arrangement, there would be plenty of truly pious and faithful persons that would not be clerics, would not gain spells, and possibly could not gain spells. No matter how refined their spirit became, no matter how great their belief, no matter how faithfully they served, no matter how holy (or unholy) they were, no power would necessarily flow out. You might could create options for persons like that, but core D&D typically does not validate that sort of self-improvement as a valid path to spell-casting ability. See however the monk for an example of what in D&D self-improvement might possibly allow, at least by traditional mechanics. 7) Historically, there has been some limited discussion by D&D authors of clerics which are straying out of their defined role receiving spells from a source other than the one that they believe that they are receiving the spells from. That is to say, while the normal process of a cleric straying involve the deity getting locked out of access to their spells, in some rare occasions author's have played with the idea of a cleric being tempted to transfer allegiance to a different deity, occasionally without realizing that they've actually strayed and are now getting spells from a wholly new power source. However, it would I think be far from usual for this to occur, precisely because of the finite resources that D&D deities seem to be operating with. Thus, unless it suits the GM and story to think otherwise, I think you could be pretty sure that your Augury was being answered by some ally or servant of your chosen patron. Putting this all together, I hope you see why I think it is utterly bizarre to speak of a D&D cleric having their Faith shaken, or using their faith to manifest something miraculous. The system really doesn't depend on the cleric's faith at all, except when anachronistically equating a religion with a "faith". [/QUOTE]
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