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Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7595628" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>It's likely that they don't. First edition through 3e offered a fairly consistent take on the cleric class, with the only modification to the class in 3e being a little used call out that you could be a cleric but not have a deity. Part of the reason that I say that it is little used, is not even WotC seemed to take that very seriously, as the vast majority of resources for clerics published by WotC assumed a tight relationship between a deity and their cleric, and you certainly didn't see a lot of published clerics of an idea or a philosophy.</p><p></p><p>There have been a few settings that tried to move the goal posts a bit, but with the exception of 2e 'Dark Sun' which had unique mechanics for magic use, they mostly seemed interested in moving the color while moving the mechanics as little as possible. </p><p></p><p>I'm not hugely familiar with 4e. It moved the mechanics of the game a ton, and thereby allows for all sorts of different interpretations as to how things work because things work very differently.</p><p></p><p>I likewise have only limited knowledge of 5e, and while it seems to have borrowed a small amount from 4e, mostly it was moving back toward the direction of mainstream D&D mechanics. Mechanically speaking a 5e cleric works almost exactly like a cleric of 1e through 3e, with the change in Orisons/Cantrips being the most significant mechanical change. In 5e, you could make a solid argument that the cleric's "Cantrips" at least represented personal innate spellcasting power, as these do not need to be prepared daily. Likewise, the domain specific abilities might represent the Cleric's increasing attunement with and control over the forces of that domain as a result of their increasing sacred or profane power derived from their own spiritual growth. </p><p></p><p>However, once again, if a cleric is the source of their own power, and the source of that power is their own will, why do they need to prepare spells? And why are their spells different than say Wizard spells? If a person can be the source of their own healing power, why can't a Wizard learn the art and lore of cleric magic and add those spells to their own knowledge? What makes it distinctive? And if simple force of will is the power source, why aren't delusional madmen mightier casters than anyone else, seeing that if the source of power is oneself and the object of faith is oneself, no one has has more faith in oneself than megalomaniacs, narcissists, and the deluded? A setting where megalomaniacs did spontaneously morph into world shaking monstrosities, and were the delusional could make the world resemble their delusions (thus ceasing to be delusional) would be pretty cool, but it would be nothing like traditional D&D settings. </p><p></p><p>I'm not saying you couldn't set up a world were clerics were the source of their own power, but my suspicion is that if you did do that and logically tried to model it, you'd end up with a very different set of mechanics than what D&D has - even 5e D&D. Instead what I typically see is, "We want to introduce a color of distinction for people troubled by the default set up, without introducing any actual alteration in how things work because on these supposedly fundamental changes." </p><p></p><p>I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to fundamentally alter the cosmology created to explain D&D spellcasting, you probably ought to do what 2e Dark Sun did and actually create new spell casting rules and classes. Even Eberron, which I don't think moved the rules as far as they needed to accommodate it's altered cosmology, at least made some changes in how the class worked and what existed within the setting (no Outer Planes, for example). Still, for all the changes, the populace of Eberron's "common sense" judgment that the Gods do exist and are the origin of Divine magic seems most likely to explain the mechanics of the game and the described fiction. All Eberron has really demonstrated is that it's Gods are a bit weird philosophically compared to the normal D&D pantheons, but they seem to function pretty much the same way.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7595628, member: 4937"] It's likely that they don't. First edition through 3e offered a fairly consistent take on the cleric class, with the only modification to the class in 3e being a little used call out that you could be a cleric but not have a deity. Part of the reason that I say that it is little used, is not even WotC seemed to take that very seriously, as the vast majority of resources for clerics published by WotC assumed a tight relationship between a deity and their cleric, and you certainly didn't see a lot of published clerics of an idea or a philosophy. There have been a few settings that tried to move the goal posts a bit, but with the exception of 2e 'Dark Sun' which had unique mechanics for magic use, they mostly seemed interested in moving the color while moving the mechanics as little as possible. I'm not hugely familiar with 4e. It moved the mechanics of the game a ton, and thereby allows for all sorts of different interpretations as to how things work because things work very differently. I likewise have only limited knowledge of 5e, and while it seems to have borrowed a small amount from 4e, mostly it was moving back toward the direction of mainstream D&D mechanics. Mechanically speaking a 5e cleric works almost exactly like a cleric of 1e through 3e, with the change in Orisons/Cantrips being the most significant mechanical change. In 5e, you could make a solid argument that the cleric's "Cantrips" at least represented personal innate spellcasting power, as these do not need to be prepared daily. Likewise, the domain specific abilities might represent the Cleric's increasing attunement with and control over the forces of that domain as a result of their increasing sacred or profane power derived from their own spiritual growth. However, once again, if a cleric is the source of their own power, and the source of that power is their own will, why do they need to prepare spells? And why are their spells different than say Wizard spells? If a person can be the source of their own healing power, why can't a Wizard learn the art and lore of cleric magic and add those spells to their own knowledge? What makes it distinctive? And if simple force of will is the power source, why aren't delusional madmen mightier casters than anyone else, seeing that if the source of power is oneself and the object of faith is oneself, no one has has more faith in oneself than megalomaniacs, narcissists, and the deluded? A setting where megalomaniacs did spontaneously morph into world shaking monstrosities, and were the delusional could make the world resemble their delusions (thus ceasing to be delusional) would be pretty cool, but it would be nothing like traditional D&D settings. I'm not saying you couldn't set up a world were clerics were the source of their own power, but my suspicion is that if you did do that and logically tried to model it, you'd end up with a very different set of mechanics than what D&D has - even 5e D&D. Instead what I typically see is, "We want to introduce a color of distinction for people troubled by the default set up, without introducing any actual alteration in how things work because on these supposedly fundamental changes." I guess what I'm saying is, if you want to fundamentally alter the cosmology created to explain D&D spellcasting, you probably ought to do what 2e Dark Sun did and actually create new spell casting rules and classes. Even Eberron, which I don't think moved the rules as far as they needed to accommodate it's altered cosmology, at least made some changes in how the class worked and what existed within the setting (no Outer Planes, for example). Still, for all the changes, the populace of Eberron's "common sense" judgment that the Gods do exist and are the origin of Divine magic seems most likely to explain the mechanics of the game and the described fiction. All Eberron has really demonstrated is that it's Gods are a bit weird philosophically compared to the normal D&D pantheons, but they seem to function pretty much the same way. [/QUOTE]
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