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Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)
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<blockquote data-quote="Sword of Spirit" data-source="post: 7597964" data-attributes="member: 6677017"><p>The idea that deities (or their servants) granted clerics their spells, either when they prepared them or cast them, isn't part of standard* D&D in editions since 3e (and I think Eberron was moving away from that too). 4e did something different and specific, and 5e has left it somewhat vague.</p><p></p><p>Here is one interpretation of how it works, that I believe is more or less consistent with current products. It's not the only interpretation, but it's mine and I like it.</p><p></p><p>Clerical spellcasting is bestowed on mortals from some divine source, usually meaning gods and their ilk. Clerics receive the ability to channel this divine power <em>when they become clerics</em>, whether by investiture/ordination in some religious hierarchy, personal mystical experience, or whatever. From that point on that power to channel divine energy into spells is <em>theirs</em>. No divine agency is required for them to go all the way up to 20th level and beyond as a fully functioning cleric. In fact, if that power is granted through investiture from established clergy, who were granted it from other clergy, it's quite possible that it goes back thousands of years to get to the point where the deity actually granted it to the ancient founders of the religious hierarchy.</p><p></p><p>But wait you say, so they can just do whatever they want and their god has no say? Of course not. You don't need to grant their god the ability to "refuse to give them spells" or take away their class features to do that. First, if they are part of any sort of religious hierarchy, <em>they</em> probably have quite a lot to say about how the cleric behaves as a representative of the religion. Getting kicked out of your religion and declared a heretic if you refuse to do proper penance and shape up is nothing to laugh at (especially if their livelihood was tied up in that hierarchy). But that's just the mortal situation. I said that the gods don't have anything to do with a cleric's spellcasting (other than being contacted by spells that allow you to contact deities), I didn't say that they are fools who don't care what people do in their name. If a cleric goes around representing themselves as a cleric of such and so, and blatantly disregards the teachings of such and so, you can bet that sooner or later, unless such and so has a clergy who will handle it for them, such and so is going to be giving that cleric a stern talking to at the least. They may not be the power cord on the cleric's spell machine, but they still have legions of powerful divine servants they can send down to smite that cleric to dust.</p><p></p><p>That's more interesting to me than tying their abilities directly to an NPC (and I do something similar with warlocks).</p><p></p><p>*Forgotten Realms may be a bit different, I don't recall the specifics. But that's because its deities are jerks who have redirected all the astral conduits on Faerun to a layer of Hades and trapped all the power they get from their followers to prevent it from leaving their realm of control to float more naturally to the Outer Planes where it's supposed to. That's probably why they have a ridiculous number of Greater Powers--too much mortal worship power trapped there.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sword of Spirit, post: 7597964, member: 6677017"] The idea that deities (or their servants) granted clerics their spells, either when they prepared them or cast them, isn't part of standard* D&D in editions since 3e (and I think Eberron was moving away from that too). 4e did something different and specific, and 5e has left it somewhat vague. Here is one interpretation of how it works, that I believe is more or less consistent with current products. It's not the only interpretation, but it's mine and I like it. Clerical spellcasting is bestowed on mortals from some divine source, usually meaning gods and their ilk. Clerics receive the ability to channel this divine power [I]when they become clerics[/I], whether by investiture/ordination in some religious hierarchy, personal mystical experience, or whatever. From that point on that power to channel divine energy into spells is [I]theirs[/I]. No divine agency is required for them to go all the way up to 20th level and beyond as a fully functioning cleric. In fact, if that power is granted through investiture from established clergy, who were granted it from other clergy, it's quite possible that it goes back thousands of years to get to the point where the deity actually granted it to the ancient founders of the religious hierarchy. But wait you say, so they can just do whatever they want and their god has no say? Of course not. You don't need to grant their god the ability to "refuse to give them spells" or take away their class features to do that. First, if they are part of any sort of religious hierarchy, [I]they[/I] probably have quite a lot to say about how the cleric behaves as a representative of the religion. Getting kicked out of your religion and declared a heretic if you refuse to do proper penance and shape up is nothing to laugh at (especially if their livelihood was tied up in that hierarchy). But that's just the mortal situation. I said that the gods don't have anything to do with a cleric's spellcasting (other than being contacted by spells that allow you to contact deities), I didn't say that they are fools who don't care what people do in their name. If a cleric goes around representing themselves as a cleric of such and so, and blatantly disregards the teachings of such and so, you can bet that sooner or later, unless such and so has a clergy who will handle it for them, such and so is going to be giving that cleric a stern talking to at the least. They may not be the power cord on the cleric's spell machine, but they still have legions of powerful divine servants they can send down to smite that cleric to dust. That's more interesting to me than tying their abilities directly to an NPC (and I do something similar with warlocks). *Forgotten Realms may be a bit different, I don't recall the specifics. But that's because its deities are jerks who have redirected all the astral conduits on Faerun to a layer of Hades and trapped all the power they get from their followers to prevent it from leaving their realm of control to float more naturally to the Outer Planes where it's supposed to. That's probably why they have a ridiculous number of Greater Powers--too much mortal worship power trapped there. [/QUOTE]
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