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Cleric shenanigans (metaphysical, no right answers)
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7599507" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Well, first of all, how do you know that the typical D&D world doesn't have "universal healthcare" as you put it. Nothing in the text of say 1e AD&D either affirms or denies how much access common farmers have to health care. There is nothing logically inconsistent about the D&D world having better healthcare options than normal, simply because in practice that is what the players will observe. Your objection seems to be that you've assumed something - lack of health care - that D&D neither claims nor implies.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Secondly, that assertion isn't even implied by the universality or near universality of priests as clerics. Injury would still occur which would be fatal before a cleric could be contacted. Diseases and injuries that occurred in batches, whether from battle or plague would quickly overwhelm the ability of local clergy to respond to. Cure Disease is notably a 3rd level spell, so even if we assumed clergy and not laity made up a significant portion of the staff of any temple, and that clergy were exclusively cleric classed, there is still no reason to assume that a typical village temple could cure more than a few diseased individuals per day (or in smaller parishes, any). So a pestilence which sprang up suddenly among several households would tax even the 'universal cleric' demographic model, as most acolytes and adepts would lack the ability to help with more than mundane healing skill. Moreover, there is no reason to suppose that the beneficiaries of any Cure Disease spells would develop the solid disease resistance that might be expected of an individual that had more naturally recovered, so if the disease was virulent attempts to cure it through magical healing alone might easily be overwhelmed if solid quarantine measures could not also be implemented. </p><p></p><p>In short, even a model where there is one or more clerics per 100 inhabitants does not in any way imply the sort of utopia you claim, even ignoring the fact that the clerics will be opposed by supernatural forces dedicated to the spread of pestilence and death.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, this is an assertion not at all supportable when imagining even an abundant supply of clerics. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, this is an assertion not at all supportable when imagining even an abundant supply of clerics. Certainly it would likely be the case that a good aligned cleric would agree to heal a poor petitioner in exchange for only a few coppers or even nothing, on occasion. But consider the opportunity cost of each healing. Each cleric has only a limited number of spells per day which constitutes a large portion of the cleric's potential economic activity for the day. The supply of divine spells is relatively inflexible. But the demand for divine magic is going to be virtually unlimited. Each day the cleric will face a variety of bids for his services. People will want blessings to improve their chances of success in business or other critical matters. They'll want crops and livestock protected. They'll want curses removed and evil spirits driven away. They'll want bodies of deceased loved ones blessed so that those bodies will not rise as undead. They'll want items blessed so as to be more officious and to war against evil. Holy water, symbols, and relics will need to be sanctified. Holy ground will need to be consecrated and protected from intrusion. They'll want food and drink cleansed of potential contaminants. They'll want auguries and divinations performed and divine portents interpreted so as to better manage their affairs. Lost objects will need to be found. Evil magic will require dispelling. Crimes and murders will need to be investigated, and inquests performed. And through all these demands, the priest must wisely reserve some portion of their power in case an unforeseen emergency or threat arrives. If someone comes needing healing in the morning, what happens when someone needs greater healing in the afternoon or the evening? What happens when evil forces assail the temple and all your spell potency has already been expended?</p><p></p><p>In short, the cost of spell healing might get pushed down lower than the exorbitant prices that clerics are said to charge the adventuring class, but not to the point that they are below the wages a craftsman would expect. The total value of the clerics spells are likely to be roughly equal on a per day basis to the expected income of any other highly skilled craftsman, and there fees based on a combination of that and the cost of their components. Most clerics will have only a handful of spells to sell and most, especially higher level ones, will normally only sell a portion of their spells in a day owing to the fact that if they are without spells at all it potentially puts the whole community at risk. Nor is it necessarily the case that the exorbitant fees that PC adventures are charged represents the fees that farmers would have to pay. It could be that the clerics typically charge wealthy reckless adventurers high rates precisely because they want the freedom to charge Goodman Ploughman and Goodwife Baker little or nothing. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All the villagers in Village of Hommlet have stat blocks of some sort, even if they are merely 0 level fighters. Regardless of this conceit, based on what is actually published suggests that PC classed individuals are exceptional (in that they are above the norm) but not rare (in that in any group of 100 or so individuals there will be several). </p><p></p><p>Suggesting that "D&D functions on massive coincidence" concedes my point rather than overturns it.</p><p></p><p>Suggesting that Village of Hommlet is an "appallingly badly written adventure anyway" is deflection. Regardless of its quality, it's demographics are typical.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7599507, member: 4937"] Well, first of all, how do you know that the typical D&D world doesn't have "universal healthcare" as you put it. Nothing in the text of say 1e AD&D either affirms or denies how much access common farmers have to health care. There is nothing logically inconsistent about the D&D world having better healthcare options than normal, simply because in practice that is what the players will observe. Your objection seems to be that you've assumed something - lack of health care - that D&D neither claims nor implies. Secondly, that assertion isn't even implied by the universality or near universality of priests as clerics. Injury would still occur which would be fatal before a cleric could be contacted. Diseases and injuries that occurred in batches, whether from battle or plague would quickly overwhelm the ability of local clergy to respond to. Cure Disease is notably a 3rd level spell, so even if we assumed clergy and not laity made up a significant portion of the staff of any temple, and that clergy were exclusively cleric classed, there is still no reason to assume that a typical village temple could cure more than a few diseased individuals per day (or in smaller parishes, any). So a pestilence which sprang up suddenly among several households would tax even the 'universal cleric' demographic model, as most acolytes and adepts would lack the ability to help with more than mundane healing skill. Moreover, there is no reason to suppose that the beneficiaries of any Cure Disease spells would develop the solid disease resistance that might be expected of an individual that had more naturally recovered, so if the disease was virulent attempts to cure it through magical healing alone might easily be overwhelmed if solid quarantine measures could not also be implemented. In short, even a model where there is one or more clerics per 100 inhabitants does not in any way imply the sort of utopia you claim, even ignoring the fact that the clerics will be opposed by supernatural forces dedicated to the spread of pestilence and death. Again, this is an assertion not at all supportable when imagining even an abundant supply of clerics. Again, this is an assertion not at all supportable when imagining even an abundant supply of clerics. Certainly it would likely be the case that a good aligned cleric would agree to heal a poor petitioner in exchange for only a few coppers or even nothing, on occasion. But consider the opportunity cost of each healing. Each cleric has only a limited number of spells per day which constitutes a large portion of the cleric's potential economic activity for the day. The supply of divine spells is relatively inflexible. But the demand for divine magic is going to be virtually unlimited. Each day the cleric will face a variety of bids for his services. People will want blessings to improve their chances of success in business or other critical matters. They'll want crops and livestock protected. They'll want curses removed and evil spirits driven away. They'll want bodies of deceased loved ones blessed so that those bodies will not rise as undead. They'll want items blessed so as to be more officious and to war against evil. Holy water, symbols, and relics will need to be sanctified. Holy ground will need to be consecrated and protected from intrusion. They'll want food and drink cleansed of potential contaminants. They'll want auguries and divinations performed and divine portents interpreted so as to better manage their affairs. Lost objects will need to be found. Evil magic will require dispelling. Crimes and murders will need to be investigated, and inquests performed. And through all these demands, the priest must wisely reserve some portion of their power in case an unforeseen emergency or threat arrives. If someone comes needing healing in the morning, what happens when someone needs greater healing in the afternoon or the evening? What happens when evil forces assail the temple and all your spell potency has already been expended? In short, the cost of spell healing might get pushed down lower than the exorbitant prices that clerics are said to charge the adventuring class, but not to the point that they are below the wages a craftsman would expect. The total value of the clerics spells are likely to be roughly equal on a per day basis to the expected income of any other highly skilled craftsman, and there fees based on a combination of that and the cost of their components. Most clerics will have only a handful of spells to sell and most, especially higher level ones, will normally only sell a portion of their spells in a day owing to the fact that if they are without spells at all it potentially puts the whole community at risk. Nor is it necessarily the case that the exorbitant fees that PC adventures are charged represents the fees that farmers would have to pay. It could be that the clerics typically charge wealthy reckless adventurers high rates precisely because they want the freedom to charge Goodman Ploughman and Goodwife Baker little or nothing. All the villagers in Village of Hommlet have stat blocks of some sort, even if they are merely 0 level fighters. Regardless of this conceit, based on what is actually published suggests that PC classed individuals are exceptional (in that they are above the norm) but not rare (in that in any group of 100 or so individuals there will be several). Suggesting that "D&D functions on massive coincidence" concedes my point rather than overturns it. Suggesting that Village of Hommlet is an "appallingly badly written adventure anyway" is deflection. Regardless of its quality, it's demographics are typical. [/QUOTE]
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