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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7600060" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>I agree both claims are true and coexist simultaneously. Neither in of themselves though proves a particular ratio between non-PC classed individuals and PC classed individuals. </p><p></p><p>So I'm also making further claims.</p><p></p><p>a) While the locations where adventures happen are not representative of the whole world, they are representative of more than 1/10000th of the inhabited world. </p><p></p><p>b) In all settings where any locations have been detailed, the ratio of PC classed individuals to non-PC classed individuals is such that there are less than between 10-100 non-PC classed individuals for each PC classed individuals. This is consistent not only across settings, but all supplements, including the demographics of "Men" in the Monster Manual, the implications of random encounter tables for Urban areas in the Dungeon Master Guide, the demographics of latter supplements such as the 2e Thieves Handbook (which details how many thieves and of what level exist in a community).</p><p></p><p>c) There are no counter examples despite the fact that over time the game began to detail more and more mundane locations in the world as the game evolved from it's simple Haven/Delve roots.</p><p></p><p>d) Since there are no counter examples, it's reasonable to suppose that even if adventuring areas have uniquely high percentages of PC classed individuals that the ratios in the undescribed areas are not more than an order of magnitude or so different and are probably less. Again, the 2e Thieves Handbook details the numbers of thieves in all possible urban environments, and the thieves alone have ratios around 1/100 inhabitants (or higher, depending on the community). Since it's reasonable to assume that fighters and clerics are at least as numerous as thieves and probably much more so (since they are not parasitical and are actually useful to the community) then its reasonable to assume that, lacking actual counterexamples, ranges like 1/10000 occur nowhere and such ratios were never really supported in play by the publishers of the game. If they ever at one time asserted such a ratio, they must have thought better of it. </p><p></p><p>e) Even if we approach the question from a simulation perspective, it's highly unlikely that extreme disparities exist between environments were adventuring occurs and the ones where it doesn't for two significant reasons. First, there would be economic pressure for leveled PC individuals to migrate from the area where adventuring occurs to the ones were it doesn't, because their skills in those environments would be rarer, more highly valued, and their disparity in power compared to the ordinary inhabitants would make more influential and able to assert their will on the population. In other words, there would be pressure for the leveled individuals to conquer the non-leveled individuals. This would also tend to immediately turn the locations where adventuring doesn't happen into areas where adventuring happens. Likewise, there would be economic pressure for monsters to desist in attacking areas where adventuring happens (and leveled PCs occur) and turn their attention to the areas where their plundering and depredations could not be easily resisted. Again, this would immediately turn the areas where adventuring doesn't happen into areas where adventuring does happen. Further, if we suppose that these populations of non-leveled individuals exist, we have to explain how in fact they are surviving in a world with creatures like ghouls and werewolves if in fact they have no real ability to resist such creatures. The obvious answer is that leveled individuals exist in sufficient quantitates and with sufficient organization to protect them from such common threats. The result is that even if we are purist to simulation of a so called gritty, "grimdark", pseudo-medieval setting that we are forced to concede that the only stable arrangement of society is one where "adventuring" occurs everywhere and leveled PC's exist in approximately the ratios established by the areas that have already been described and detailed by the game publishers.</p><p></p><p>As a subset to those claims, the ratio between clergy who can cast spells and "laity" who are serving a cult seems to be as described quite high, and that in general all temples seem to contain at least some clergy and all individuals identified as clergy tend to be or always are clerics. </p><p></p><p>I will introduce a caveat. Forgotten Realms is far and away the most detailed setting TSR/WotC has ever published, and we have very good reason to believe that FR entirely abandoned the demographics that prevailed in other settings. In general, it appears to me that on average FR characters of all sorts are about twice the level that prevailed in Greyhawk, Krynn or Eberron. In those settings, 15th level is a fairly high level character and typical characters are 1st-2nd level with leaders who are 3rd-5th level. In the FR, 30th level is a fairly high level character, typical characters are 2nd-4th level, and have leaders that are 6th-10th level. But that's only a general approximation, and I don't think any effort was made to consciously double the levels normally used. I just think that high level NPCs were introduced for a variety of gamist and personal reasons and it happened to work about that way. Thus, comparing FR demographics to what prevails anywhere else tends to be apples and oranges.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The way I typically handle this is to begin the campaign with some sort of widespread crisis, so that the leaders in the community are obviously busy doing their thing, and you are forced to do something of lesser scope, but still valorous and heroic, for the sake of survival (or loyalty to the community, or opportunity for violence and plunder, or whatever motivates the character). Thus for example I might start campaigns with natural disasters or invasions or magical tribulations or whatever, so that the whole of the community is swept up in the problem. Gradually, the PC's thereafter take more and more central positions in the story, and the PC's are recognized as destined heroes and people more and more turn to them for aid.</p><p></p><p>But you are correct that D&D's traditional Haven/Delve set up invariably runs into the problem of, "If 1st level characters can go retrieve this treasure, how is it that some NPC's of higher level ages before hasn't plundered these halls?" Typically, no good answers are given to that question. In fact, with T1: Village of Hommlet, the question has so few answers, that it calls into question emersion in the setting - the NPCs not only have the ability to plunder the moat house, but in the text are given the motives for doing so.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7600060, member: 4937"] I agree both claims are true and coexist simultaneously. Neither in of themselves though proves a particular ratio between non-PC classed individuals and PC classed individuals. So I'm also making further claims. a) While the locations where adventures happen are not representative of the whole world, they are representative of more than 1/10000th of the inhabited world. b) In all settings where any locations have been detailed, the ratio of PC classed individuals to non-PC classed individuals is such that there are less than between 10-100 non-PC classed individuals for each PC classed individuals. This is consistent not only across settings, but all supplements, including the demographics of "Men" in the Monster Manual, the implications of random encounter tables for Urban areas in the Dungeon Master Guide, the demographics of latter supplements such as the 2e Thieves Handbook (which details how many thieves and of what level exist in a community). c) There are no counter examples despite the fact that over time the game began to detail more and more mundane locations in the world as the game evolved from it's simple Haven/Delve roots. d) Since there are no counter examples, it's reasonable to suppose that even if adventuring areas have uniquely high percentages of PC classed individuals that the ratios in the undescribed areas are not more than an order of magnitude or so different and are probably less. Again, the 2e Thieves Handbook details the numbers of thieves in all possible urban environments, and the thieves alone have ratios around 1/100 inhabitants (or higher, depending on the community). Since it's reasonable to assume that fighters and clerics are at least as numerous as thieves and probably much more so (since they are not parasitical and are actually useful to the community) then its reasonable to assume that, lacking actual counterexamples, ranges like 1/10000 occur nowhere and such ratios were never really supported in play by the publishers of the game. If they ever at one time asserted such a ratio, they must have thought better of it. e) Even if we approach the question from a simulation perspective, it's highly unlikely that extreme disparities exist between environments were adventuring occurs and the ones where it doesn't for two significant reasons. First, there would be economic pressure for leveled PC individuals to migrate from the area where adventuring occurs to the ones were it doesn't, because their skills in those environments would be rarer, more highly valued, and their disparity in power compared to the ordinary inhabitants would make more influential and able to assert their will on the population. In other words, there would be pressure for the leveled individuals to conquer the non-leveled individuals. This would also tend to immediately turn the locations where adventuring doesn't happen into areas where adventuring happens. Likewise, there would be economic pressure for monsters to desist in attacking areas where adventuring happens (and leveled PCs occur) and turn their attention to the areas where their plundering and depredations could not be easily resisted. Again, this would immediately turn the areas where adventuring doesn't happen into areas where adventuring does happen. Further, if we suppose that these populations of non-leveled individuals exist, we have to explain how in fact they are surviving in a world with creatures like ghouls and werewolves if in fact they have no real ability to resist such creatures. The obvious answer is that leveled individuals exist in sufficient quantitates and with sufficient organization to protect them from such common threats. The result is that even if we are purist to simulation of a so called gritty, "grimdark", pseudo-medieval setting that we are forced to concede that the only stable arrangement of society is one where "adventuring" occurs everywhere and leveled PC's exist in approximately the ratios established by the areas that have already been described and detailed by the game publishers. As a subset to those claims, the ratio between clergy who can cast spells and "laity" who are serving a cult seems to be as described quite high, and that in general all temples seem to contain at least some clergy and all individuals identified as clergy tend to be or always are clerics. I will introduce a caveat. Forgotten Realms is far and away the most detailed setting TSR/WotC has ever published, and we have very good reason to believe that FR entirely abandoned the demographics that prevailed in other settings. In general, it appears to me that on average FR characters of all sorts are about twice the level that prevailed in Greyhawk, Krynn or Eberron. In those settings, 15th level is a fairly high level character and typical characters are 1st-2nd level with leaders who are 3rd-5th level. In the FR, 30th level is a fairly high level character, typical characters are 2nd-4th level, and have leaders that are 6th-10th level. But that's only a general approximation, and I don't think any effort was made to consciously double the levels normally used. I just think that high level NPCs were introduced for a variety of gamist and personal reasons and it happened to work about that way. Thus, comparing FR demographics to what prevails anywhere else tends to be apples and oranges. The way I typically handle this is to begin the campaign with some sort of widespread crisis, so that the leaders in the community are obviously busy doing their thing, and you are forced to do something of lesser scope, but still valorous and heroic, for the sake of survival (or loyalty to the community, or opportunity for violence and plunder, or whatever motivates the character). Thus for example I might start campaigns with natural disasters or invasions or magical tribulations or whatever, so that the whole of the community is swept up in the problem. Gradually, the PC's thereafter take more and more central positions in the story, and the PC's are recognized as destined heroes and people more and more turn to them for aid. But you are correct that D&D's traditional Haven/Delve set up invariably runs into the problem of, "If 1st level characters can go retrieve this treasure, how is it that some NPC's of higher level ages before hasn't plundered these halls?" Typically, no good answers are given to that question. In fact, with T1: Village of Hommlet, the question has so few answers, that it calls into question emersion in the setting - the NPCs not only have the ability to plunder the moat house, but in the text are given the motives for doing so. [/QUOTE]
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