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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6829206" data-attributes="member: 6790260">@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6803850" target="_blank">Vicaring</a>: It sort of depends on what you mean by "Priest," doesn't it? Because I don't see anything wrong with having the Priest archetype produce heroes any more than the Cleric archetype does--they're just subtly different. 2e Specialty Priests captured some of that--they didn't always get the good armor. The 3e Cloistered Cleric absolutely covered it, being an inherently Knowledge/Skill-focused variant that dropped most of the 'warrior' aspects of the Cleric. And then in 4e, the Cleric was only moderately armored (a step below Fighters, who were a step below the best--only Paladins start with plate in 4e) and could go purely "pacifist"; further, it was joined (with PHB2) by the Invoker, who more fully captured the robe-wearing, "call down the fire" type character. And, of course, 5e includes the Light, Knowledge, and Trickery domains, which don't boost the Cleric above its inherent Medium proficiency.So for, what, four editions running? Something like that--we've had direct support for the robe-wearing, <s>cross-</s> holy symbol-brandishing kind of Cleric, even if it didn't precisely go by that name.I think part of the issue may also be the meanings we pack into these words. It sounds like "Priest," to you, connotes someone mundane and administrative--a scholar or contemplative who needs to be saved by the people who are Real Heroes. I don't personally think it has such a connotation--if I wanted to make that particular distinction in D&D, I'd probably use "minister" or "clergyman/woman" rather than "priest," because it's someone who only serves their deity by ministering to the faithful, performing requisite sacred rites, and administering the theopolitical structure. In 4e and 5e terms, a Priest is a divinely-powered character who relies (almost) wholly on spells and generally eschews armor, while a minister is someone with Ordained Priest (4e theme) or Acolyte (5e background)--and therefore can still potentially be a player character. Being a minister is primarily a social position (as the 4e article that introduced the Ordained Priest notes) and often carries very religion-specific titles (of which that article lists nine potential options, and I can think of at least two more). Being a Cleric or Priest in D&D says much more about what you can do than your specific social position.But all of that is pretty tangential to the question of the thread.In my opinion:Clerics are fundamentally representatives of the faith. Be they missionaries, scholars, wrathful judges, healers...doesn't matter. They are there to bring the message of their deity to all the far places, to explain that message to those who don't understand, to clarify and reinforce that message for the faithful, and to call down divine fire when needed.Paladins are fundamentally holy soldiers: they aren't Fighters, because their prowess on the battlefield comes no less from godly(/philosophical) strength than it does from their own, but nor are they Clerics, because their job is not to interpret Divine Will for the faithful, nor to proselytize to those who don't believe. Their job is to stand as the bulwark between the faithful and Anathema; to win battles in their deity's(/cause's) name.Clerics have had decent armor because proselytizing in most D&D worlds is dangerous business, but frequently have not had the very best armor because fighting--while important--is not always the core of the Cleric's identity. Paladins always have the best armor because fighting very much is core to their identity. Clerics are Empowered Prophets. Paladins are Holy Soldiers.*(Invokers share the "Empowered Prophets" moniker, splitting it along support-y lines for Clerics and angel-summoning/divine-fire-calling for Invokers. Avengers are Inquisitors, the "internal affairs" branch of this metaphorical "Divine Military." 4e split these two classes out; 5e has, with debatable success, tried to fold them into the Cleric and Paladin respectively while still preserving some small part of their identity via subclass features.)I find myself both agreeing and disagreeing with @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6787650" target="_blank">Hemlock</a> though. On the one hand, my visceral reaction was (1) "What do you mean, Paladins don't [ever] serve the gods?" and (2) "You did not just compare my favorite class to Jar-Jar Binks. Take it back." But on the other, I have exactly zero problems with the two sentences that followed that. I don't believe Paladins need to serve any god; it is devotion to something that makes them what they are, not necessarily a deific figure. I wrote literally all of this post prior to this paragraph before reading Hemlock's post, so my addition of things like "(/philosophical) strength" has nothing to do with taking his words into account. My bigger problem is the statement (or, at least, strong implication) that Paladins DO NOT serve any gods, ever, period, end of discussion--I cannot agree with that, and if it is what Hemlock meant then unfortunately I must unfortunately disagree.Neither Clerics nor Paladins, IMO, need to minister to the faithful, though Clerics are slightly more natural to that role (ironically, despite not having any particular use for Cha in 5e!) But not needing to minister to the faithful emphatically does not mean they cannot do so--and multiple Paladins I've played have, in fact, become leaders and representatives of their faith in a purely social sense, while still living their adventuring lives in the "soldier of god" sense. (One was in Dungeon World, where Paladins are nearly as much of casters as Clerics are if you elect to it, as I did, so that's a bit of a grey area, I'll admit.)*Edit: With the caveat that, as the preceding sentences tried to state, "Holy" does not mean "comes from a god." Holiness, in a D&D context, has a broader meaning.</blockquote>

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