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Cleric vs Paladin: Concepts and Mechanical realisation
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 7865130" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Edit:</p><p>Ooof, the thread necromancy is <em>real</em> though. Had not realized I already had posts in this thread!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Being extremely pithy: The Cleric is foremost a chaplain and guide. The Paladin is foremost a warrior and exemplar.</p><p></p><p>Less pithy: A Cleric delves deepest into the theological mysteries and overt spells of their deity or philosophy. Where the Paladin looks outward, defending the faith and faithful from enemies, the Cleric very much looks inward, both into themselves (even a War cleric should be contemplative to some extent) and into their church at an individual level (helping individual members of the faith) and collectively (building up the church's institutions). As the name implies, a Cleric should have at least a little bit of "scholar" in it, even if that scholarship is focused or not developed further. Mechanically, Clerics have the most "deity-centered" mechanics, with both Domain effects and high-level divine spells (like <em>miracle</em> and <em>true resurrection</em>) reflecting divine influence over and through them. As an example, Moses is a key archetypal figure for the Cleric.</p><p></p><p>A Paladin, on the other hand, is inherently a warrior, and does not require being contemplative at all (though some will be anyway). Paladins are the knights of the temple, the bulwark of the faith. While the rest of the faithful remains in the city or worshipping in the temple, the Paladin goes out into the dark places to <em>be</em> the light in the darkness. The purity of the Paladin's conviction, their genuine goodness displayed with every carefully-chosen word and earnestly-pursued deed, makes them a beacon to their allies, inspiring others to fight the good fight alongside them. Mechanically, a Paladin employs aura effects (their inner fire bolstering others who can see and hear them), smiting evil, Lay on Hands (of which the best D&D version is 4e's), and "pronouncements" of some kind (4e's Divine Challenge/Sanction; Dungeon World's Quest move; Pathfinder's litanies; etc.) as a form of "have at thee, evildoer!" Though he is too recent to be an influencing example, Michael Carpenter from the <em>Dresden Files</em> books is absolutely my go-to Paladin archetype example.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I adore the Paladin. I've never really been drawn to the Cleric, I'm not entirely sure why. I guess the problem is, if I want a contemplative, I'll probably just go whole-hog and play a Wizard; Cleric falls in an awkward middle-ground for me personally.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't really know WRT the Cleric, as I haven't played one and (as noted above) am not as drawn to the class as I am to Paladin. However, I can say that the 5e Paladin is intensely disappointing...despite being really good. By which I mean, the class is solid, but it dropped the ball on making the mechanics <em>feel</em> like "Paladin mechanics," if that makes sense. 4e's mechanics for Lay on Hands were amazing, because you literally DID give of yourself to replenish others. It's a damn sight better than the 3.x Paladin, which mechanically sucked <em>and</em> wasn't super good on offering mechanics that produce flavor. As noted in my examples above, I would re-build the 5e Paladin from the ground up, replacing the spellcasting mechanics with Quest, Boon, and Vow mechanics to create a class framework flexible enough to adapt to given situations, but still constrained by reasonable limits to their behavior; this would be enhanced by "Litany" or some other kind of "pronouncement" mechanics that would have <em>some</em> of the function of spells, but work in a different way (similar to, but not the same as, how Warlock spellcasting just works <em>differently</em> from non-Warlock spellcasting).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Despite the flak it sometimes gets, I actually really <em>like</em> a good Warlock/Paladin mix (usually I prefer the former getting "reformed" and taking up the Paladin mantle)....<strong><u><em>IF</em></u></strong> it has a good story to it. Because that's a great thematic journey, and having lingering Dark Past troubles and consequences, despite <em>trying</em> to walk the straight and narrow in the present, is a great way to add some delightful spice both to the individual character, and to any campaign that character plays in.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 7865130, member: 6790260"] Edit: Ooof, the thread necromancy is [I]real[/I] though. Had not realized I already had posts in this thread! Being extremely pithy: The Cleric is foremost a chaplain and guide. The Paladin is foremost a warrior and exemplar. Less pithy: A Cleric delves deepest into the theological mysteries and overt spells of their deity or philosophy. Where the Paladin looks outward, defending the faith and faithful from enemies, the Cleric very much looks inward, both into themselves (even a War cleric should be contemplative to some extent) and into their church at an individual level (helping individual members of the faith) and collectively (building up the church's institutions). As the name implies, a Cleric should have at least a little bit of "scholar" in it, even if that scholarship is focused or not developed further. Mechanically, Clerics have the most "deity-centered" mechanics, with both Domain effects and high-level divine spells (like [I]miracle[/I] and [I]true resurrection[/I]) reflecting divine influence over and through them. As an example, Moses is a key archetypal figure for the Cleric. A Paladin, on the other hand, is inherently a warrior, and does not require being contemplative at all (though some will be anyway). Paladins are the knights of the temple, the bulwark of the faith. While the rest of the faithful remains in the city or worshipping in the temple, the Paladin goes out into the dark places to [I]be[/I] the light in the darkness. The purity of the Paladin's conviction, their genuine goodness displayed with every carefully-chosen word and earnestly-pursued deed, makes them a beacon to their allies, inspiring others to fight the good fight alongside them. Mechanically, a Paladin employs aura effects (their inner fire bolstering others who can see and hear them), smiting evil, Lay on Hands (of which the best D&D version is 4e's), and "pronouncements" of some kind (4e's Divine Challenge/Sanction; Dungeon World's Quest move; Pathfinder's litanies; etc.) as a form of "have at thee, evildoer!" Though he is too recent to be an influencing example, Michael Carpenter from the [I]Dresden Files[/I] books is absolutely my go-to Paladin archetype example. I adore the Paladin. I've never really been drawn to the Cleric, I'm not entirely sure why. I guess the problem is, if I want a contemplative, I'll probably just go whole-hog and play a Wizard; Cleric falls in an awkward middle-ground for me personally. I don't really know WRT the Cleric, as I haven't played one and (as noted above) am not as drawn to the class as I am to Paladin. However, I can say that the 5e Paladin is intensely disappointing...despite being really good. By which I mean, the class is solid, but it dropped the ball on making the mechanics [I]feel[/I] like "Paladin mechanics," if that makes sense. 4e's mechanics for Lay on Hands were amazing, because you literally DID give of yourself to replenish others. It's a damn sight better than the 3.x Paladin, which mechanically sucked [I]and[/I] wasn't super good on offering mechanics that produce flavor. As noted in my examples above, I would re-build the 5e Paladin from the ground up, replacing the spellcasting mechanics with Quest, Boon, and Vow mechanics to create a class framework flexible enough to adapt to given situations, but still constrained by reasonable limits to their behavior; this would be enhanced by "Litany" or some other kind of "pronouncement" mechanics that would have [I]some[/I] of the function of spells, but work in a different way (similar to, but not the same as, how Warlock spellcasting just works [I]differently[/I] from non-Warlock spellcasting). Despite the flak it sometimes gets, I actually really [I]like[/I] a good Warlock/Paladin mix (usually I prefer the former getting "reformed" and taking up the Paladin mantle)....[B][U][I]IF[/I][/U][/B] it has a good story to it. Because that's a great thematic journey, and having lingering Dark Past troubles and consequences, despite [I]trying[/I] to walk the straight and narrow in the present, is a great way to add some delightful spice both to the individual character, and to any campaign that character plays in. [/QUOTE]
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