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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sadrik" data-source="post: 2685437" data-attributes="member: 14506">Well, wait a minute. I did switch up my roster and I did give the shortened version of the whole story. And there were some demons btw the vampire was the leader of the cult of Asmoedeus<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" /> . Regaurdless of all that, the turn undead ability altered me from using some of the coolest villains to their fullest. Let me tell you a party of 7th level characters (no edit- a 7th level cleric) laughs at *technically a fairly difficult encounter* a group of ~50 zombies. What I am hearing you say is: "Thats the way the game is. You as the DM should not use undead." I dont buy that argument. I say the game rule needs altering or omission. One die roll encounter ender-like abilities should not be around imo. and yes I know that there are 5th+ level spells that have save or die mechanics. The one diference here is that those generally target one person/creature. Turn ability is very reusable and effects more than one creature generally.Min/Max? What that they took PrCs and feats that help them against the dangers they will likely encounter? I dont see a problem with that. I do see a problem when you do that and it is way to powerful against that one thing. That is what I see occuring in 3.x in terms of turning. It completely makes one of the coolest class of villains and makes them punching bags and xp slot machines.My overarching point is that if you are going to put the effort into making domain specific turn abilities, step away from the turn mechanic and move more toward a divine feat type of thing. Because, if every DM was to avoid placing the types of mosters that the PC's can turn, to rein in the power of the ability, it will make it a virtually dead ability for the PC and worse an untouchable creature type for the DM. I don't think that is what we want, I know I dont want that.</blockquote>

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