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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Merlion" data-source="post: 778006" data-attributes="member: 10397">This has been on my mind for a while now and I'd like to get some other opnions. Some of you are probably going to say this should go in house rules, but I'm not really looking for rules to "fix the problem" just other peoples thoughts on the matter.  Now as virtualy all of you know, I am against the alignment restriction for paladins. I feel that if they are supposed to be holy champions of goodness and justice they should have to be good not neccsarily lawful. if all gods get clerics why shouldnt all gods get holy warriors/knights/champions?  Well in the course of my thoughts and discussions on this matter I have realized how much overlap their is between the two classes...especialy if you figure on paladins being universal. The Cleric steps on the Paladins toes. Or I suppose it could be seen the other way around.  Clerics are the priests, the earthly servants of deities, powers or forces. clerics are usualy used to represent many things....maybe to many. the village priest. the scholar priest. the warrior-cleric of Tempus. They are supposed to be priests who are capable of physicaly defending themselves and others.   The paladin is the divine champion, the warrior of the church. he is devoutly religious in whatever sense...may well be considererd a memeber of the clergy...and gains some divine powers including spells. But he is primarily a warrior. he's got the best base attack progression and can use all armors and essentialy all weapons, and a d10 HD.  But the thing is the cleric can fill the role of "holy champion/knight/warrior" almost as well as the paladin. And still fill the role of the priest and master divine spellcaster. To the point where seemingly the Cleric makes the paladin almost redundant and at the same time almost doesnt fit into some of his own roles. He's got the next best BAB, can use all armor and shields, and simple weapons...and if he's got the War Domain probably another quality weapon for free...or at the most the price of a single feat. and a d8 HD..only one type down from the Paladin. but would the all-but-cloistered scholar priest or even the divinely blessed vicar of a small town have thease qualities? and do the make the Paladin somewhat redundant?  Now I am not saying the way things are is bad, broken, or doesnt work. But it does seem a little off.  I know a lot of people here use what amount to variant cleric classes. I saw one called the Ecclesiastic in the Net Book of Classes that was like a divine wizard..d4 lowest BAB etc and got more skills and knowledge related benefits.  So one could replace the cleric with something like that. Or have all 3...although that probably just makes it worse as then all 3 step on each others toes.  Probably if one is going to change it, altering the cleric slightly would be the best way. Of course its really an issue for those of us who would house rule away the alignment restriction for paladins.  Well anyway enough rambling. I apologize if that was a tad incoherent. I just find the whole thing interesting and would like to get other viewpoints.</blockquote>

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