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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6860188" data-attributes="member: 4937">Because you had studied magic and systems of magical belief and assumed that in a world were magic was real that the world conformed to the world described by people who really believed in magic.But in point of fact, I don't think D&D has ever spent much time describing how magic actually works in detail.  You are free to come up with your own details about how and why magic in D&D works the way it does.  I was simply describing what I think the coherent reasoning behind Sorcerer's depending on Charisma possibly could be, based on my study of ancient belief.  And for all I know, the designers of the Sorcerer had access to the same information and used the same logic to justify the design.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Perhaps.   I've been known to argue for the sake of argument, and I certainly do have an agenda in the argument.  But first, everyone is biased, so it requires no special proof to assume bias.  And second, I'm usually pretty good at figuring out what a person's biases are.In my opinion, the productive approach to this discussion would have been to not advance the idea that there was one right approach to fantasy religion, but instead exploring the implications of what it meant to define clerics primarily by wisdom or primarily by charisma actually were.  For example, if you define clerics primarily by charisma, then it could mean that clerics can be and often are shysters, tricking and cajoling deities into doing their will, and who gain power by gaining control over others.  And that would be fine and even interesting.  Instead the OP wanted to make the argument that clerics should be defined primarily by charisma, because real world clerics can be and often are shysters, tricking and cajoling deities into doing their will, and who gain power by gaining control over others, and so forth.And it should be immediately obvious that approaching the subject in that manner isn't particularly productive.  In fact, when I found this thread and started reading through it, I was surprised by the end of the first page that it hadn't been moderated already.  For example, consider the OP's assertion that he didn't bring real world religion into this, and then read post #19 where he explicitly asserts he is right because this is the way real world religion actually works (and piles on a few negative stereotypes for good measure).tl;dr: It is a game.  It doesn't have to follow your religious beliefs.</blockquote>

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