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Message: <blockquote data-quote="phil500" data-source="post: 4247295" data-attributes="member: 63101">Ok so there were some STR based things I thought were wis based.  Thanks for pointing that out.As to wis vs reflex: it is nice that reflex is usually lower than AC and it makes the lower +attack ok.  but my point wasnt that they couldnt hit very often, it was that they need a wis based attack to land for almost all of their effectiveness.I still feel that since buffing (and sometimes healing) require hitting, having a low WIS is not an option.I used to build my 3.5 clerics with rather low wis, and just buff myself to hell and swing a mace.  I get the feeling that will no longer be a viable build in the cleric class.  That is a just a hunch, and it remains to be seen how effectively a cleric will be able to multi himself into a striker or defender.For now, I have to conclude that it looks like the battlecleric/battlebard builds that buffed/healed self/allies rather than landing spells on opponents have been pushed into the warlord class.</blockquote>