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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CuRoi" data-source="post: 5456800" data-attributes="member: 98032">I've read through quite an interesting argument here! I'd like to weigh in just a bit: If your players aren't willing to sacrifice their PCs for say, a big overarching goal in your campaign, perhaps you haven't created something they care that much about. Now, I'm not saying everyday needs to be a choice between "You do "x" or the world dies". That is sort of a railroad (though it could make for a very suspenseful campaign if done right.) But if you have done something they feel invested in, they will want to protect it. If they are playing certain roles, they will also want to fulfill those roles, even it means a bad end for their PC. I once had players willingly opt for a TPK to avoid capture. They had drawn the ire of a powerful secretive group. For weeks, they were aware they were under surveillance (constant scrying sensors, dark shadowy figures, etc.) They knew something was coming and were driven to the point of extreme paranoia. The bad guys spent weeks collecting intell, but the party feared they were after certain info they protected. Wrong - they were watching the PCs every move. They developed a list of spells the mage could cast, PCs exit strategies from battles, etc etc. They then showed up with what amounted to a highly specialized rendition force tailored to kidnap the PCs.  Was it a railroad? Yeah, sort of. But it was intriguing, a fun as heck for myself AND the players. The cloak and dagger running around, the paranoia, the final big clash with this special ops team. In the end, they were just about to be captured and decided to start a massive forest fire which would surely consume them as well as the enemy. That was unexpected - I just wanted to capture the PCs and take them to the an enemy base on a demi-plane they hadn't found yet allowing them to play out a "jail break" scenario. They were , to a player, so terrified of being taken alive by this shadow group, they opted to kill themselves over capture. They weren't upset about in the least mind you. they were having the time of their lives and the sacrifice seemed well worth it. (They chose magical fire so as to hopefully leave nothing for ressing...they had a plan) On the fly, I altered my plans and let them live (for other reasons). I think some were even just a tad disappointed. In other campaigns, I've had players willingly sacrifice characters for goals as well. At one time the PCs were collecting an artifact that had been broken into many pieces. They discovered that the artifact aged whoever possesed. One player volunteered to take on the burden and rapidly aged throughout the remainder of the campaign. Due to it being magical aging, there was no "benefit" (just physical stat loss). In the end, there was a big battle - and the PCs chose a path of certain doom just to make sure they succeeded in their quest. In the first case it wasn't "choose this or die" but it was a "railroad" of sorts as there was very little they could do at the time to stop this group from scrying on them. In the second case, it very much was a "sacrifice your health and very possibly your lives to stop the evil bad guy" or allow the world to fall under darkness. Nobody complained about "being forced" to save the world and ultimately die. Leads me to my biggest complaint - the enormous rash of "neutral-selfish" characters people bring to the table. Nobody seems interested in playing a role or an alignment anymore, but that's probably another thread.</blockquote>

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