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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8212344" data-attributes="member: 71699">I see [USER=6777378]@Iry[/USER]'s argument as arising from a dilemma.Suppose we take the consequence of being lightly obscured - "disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight" - to amount to a mechanical restatement of "cannot see clearly". And then suppose we take it that if "You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly" then "You can hide from a creature that can't see you clearly". But following this logic, we should also read "You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured" if you have Skulker as implying "You can't try to hide when you are lightly obscured" if you don't have Skulker.So now we have our dilemma. The first horn is that we think we must let creatures that are lightly obscured hide because they cannot be seen clearly. The second horn is that something needs to change when you have / don't have Skulker. [USER=6777378]@Iry[/USER] grasps the first horn and adjusts it just enough to resolve the dilemma. A creature that is lightly obscured can remain hidden, but it cannot try to hide - because that power is owned by Skulker! The second horn thus proves to be blunt.The view espoused by [USER=6788736]@Flamestrike[/USER] resolves that dilemma in a different way. It says that "can't see you clearly" and "disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight" are really two different things: I can see you clearly AND have disadvantage on my sight-based Wisdom (Perception) check. They're not mutually exclusive. The first horn thus proves to be blunt... and there is no second horn.The dispute therefore should be over the linchpin point - is disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight the same as or different from seeing clearly? <s>One argument I thought of that might help this is to consider how you would rule on perceiving a stealthy creature who is hiding in a brightly lit space that is free from any obscurement, using invisibility? I think that searchers do not have disadvantage on their Wisdom (Perception) check relying on sight in this situation even though they surely cannot see the hider clearly. I would be interested to hear others thoughts.</s></blockquote>

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