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<blockquote data-quote="Otterscrubber" data-source="post: 4294760" data-attributes="member: 4588">Well just about everything you said there was blatantly incorrect.&nbsp; The first line in the second paragraph on page 280 of the PHB where it describes &quot;how to target what you can't see&quot; says in bold letters Invisible creature uses Stealth.&nbsp; Sounds like they are using stealth there, a skill that has a very specific description.&nbsp; That little subsection does not say anything whatsover about having special rules as it is simply restating a portion of the stealth skill description having to do with creatures with total concealment.&nbsp;&nbsp; Are you implying that that little blurb is the ONLY way to target an invisible creature?&nbsp; I don't see anything on page 280 that mentions tremorsense?&nbsp; Yet apparently that works.&nbsp; Of course it does.In order for a creature to be unable to target you it must be unable to see and hear you.&nbsp; Invisibility takes care of the see part but Stealth, the skill, takes care of them hearing you.&nbsp; If you stand there and shout, they will know what square you are in, it does not even take a perception roll. Or since that isn't mentioned on page 280 is that not the case?And the &quot;Rules for Invisible Creatures&quot; you seem to mention as being a separate set of guidelines do not exist.&nbsp; It does in fact state that all invisibility is is just another example of total concealment.&nbsp; There are no separate rules for being invisible that fall outside the guidelines of full concealment.&nbsp; There are 3 effects listed under invisible though: 1) You can't be seen by normal forms of vision, 2) you have combat advantage against an enemy that can't see you (which is different than mere stealth, but that's another thread), and 3) You don't provoke OA from enemies that can't see you.&nbsp; That's it.&nbsp; If you want to not be heard, its a stealth vs perception check using full concealment guidelines that's it.&nbsp; And it clearly states that attacking or shouting negates any stealth effects.Peace!&nbsp; I'm out.......</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Otterscrubber, post: 4294760, member: 4588"] Well just about everything you said there was blatantly incorrect. The first line in the second paragraph on page 280 of the PHB where it describes "how to target what you can't see" says in bold letters [b]Invisible creature uses Stealth[/b]. Sounds like they are using stealth there, a skill that has a very specific description. That little subsection does not say anything whatsover about having special rules as it is simply restating a portion of the stealth skill description having to do with creatures with total concealment. Are you implying that that little blurb is the ONLY way to target an invisible creature? I don't see anything on page 280 that mentions tremorsense? Yet apparently that works. Of course it does. In order for a creature to be unable to target you it must be unable to see and hear you. Invisibility takes care of the see part but Stealth, the skill, takes care of them hearing you. If you stand there and shout, they will know what square you are in, it does not even take a perception roll. Or since that isn't mentioned on page 280 is that not the case? And the "Rules for Invisible Creatures" you seem to mention as being a separate set of guidelines do not exist. It does in fact state that all invisibility is is just another example of total concealment. There are no separate rules for being invisible that fall outside the guidelines of full concealment. There are 3 effects listed under invisible though: 1) You can't be seen by normal forms of vision, 2) you have combat advantage against an enemy that can't see you (which is different than mere stealth, but that's another thread), and 3) You don't provoke OA from enemies that can't see you. That's it. If you want to not be heard, its a stealth vs perception check using full concealment guidelines that's it. And it clearly states that attacking or shouting negates any stealth effects. Peace! I'm out....... [/QUOTE]

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