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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Keenath" data-source="post: 4524857" data-attributes="member: 59792">I recently started planning some just-sub-epic stuff, and ... well, tell me if I'm totally off base here.Cloudkill is absolutely underwhelming.  It duplicates Stinking Cloud to a ridiculous degree, and doesn't do anything that makes me want to take it compared to other spells of its level, nor does it even do anything that seems particularly cloudkill-ish.Presented for your consideration.Stinking Cloud is a 5th level daily; Cloudkill is a 19th level daily.  Just keep that in mind as we proceed; Cloudkill's stats and abilities simply don't justify being that high in level.Both spells attack with Int vs Fort, take a standard action to cast, and sustain minor.  A wash.Cloudkill is a burst 5 zone, while SC is a burst 2 zone.  SC therefore covers a 5x5 area while CK encompasses an area of 11x11 squares, or 121 individual squares.This is arguably a strike against to Cloudkill.  Realize that the spell has a range of 20, so the center square must be within that 20 square range.  If you can manage to drop this thing at extreme range, you'll fill literally half the space between you and your target square.  If you can't manage that distance, you'll have even less space to maneuver.  In all but the most spacious dungeon environments, you won't be able to use this spell without filling the entire battlefield with poison gas.  And yes, it hits you and your allies just as hard as your enemies.To make matters worse, Cloudkill can move only 3 squares at a time, slower than even a heavily armored halfling (the slowest PC), and only slightly faster than a Slowed character.   Stinking Cloud's smaller area can slide around the battlefield at speed 6, which makes it as fast as an unarmored human and allows the caster to put that 5x5 zone virtually anywhere he wants to on a turn-by-turn basis.  (Read: Hurting enemies while avoiding allies.)  To my mind this makes a better Controller spell anyway, because it encourages your party to take the spell's movement into account and position themselves appropriately.But the real insult is that both SC and CK deal exactly the same damage.  1d10+Int on a hit on initial casting, and the same again to any creature that enters or starts its turn inside the cloud (no attack).  This is the worst offense, to me.  A level 19 spell that deals the same damage as a level 5 spell?  Absurd!Comparing the damage to other spells of the same level:Fireball is the standard "deal lots of damage" spell at 5th level.  It drops 3d6+Int, compared to Stinking Cloud's 1d10+Int.  Roughly double the damage, there; or approximately one and a half dice less, if you prefer.Acid Wave is a good area-damage spell at 19th level.  It deals 5d6+Int and ongoing acid damage in a 5x5 area.  This is compared to the same 1d10+Int with a bigger area of effect.  Sorry, no sale.  Two dice ought to be a minimum of damage here, and I personally think three would be appropriate!  Even as free every-turn damage, this spell can't be expected to deal more than 15 damage per hit, and that's just sad when you're one level from going Epic.  Black Tentacles is more worthwhile; at least it immobilizes creatures in addition to dealing so-so damage.And that brings me to my next point.  I think this is just an oversight, but Stinking Cloud blocks line of sight, while Cloudkill does not.  This being 4th edition, spells don't do anything unless they say they do, and CK doesn't make any mention of concealment or blocking vision, so it doesn't.My final point, I suppose, is more general and vague.  Cloudkill doesn't mechanically support what I expect to see based on the spell's name.  I'm trying not to be biased by what I remember it doing in 3rd edition, but even so...  Most wizard powers are pretty sensible.  A fireball makes a ball of fire (yes, or a cube, shut up...); Black Tentacles summons a bunch of tentacles (which we can presume to be black) that do something that's mechanically in line with how tentacles ought to act; for the most part, a spell does exactly what it says on the tin (so to speak).But cloudkill is odd.  Even if we assume it makes a cloud and failing to mention vision-blocking was an accident, it doesn't really fulfill the kill part either.  Its relatively minor damage isn't particularly lethal; it doesn't have any special effect that would make it seem more like filling the area with a horrific toxin; it really does nothing more than sweep minions over a wide area.  Nothing about Cloudkill really justifies that name -- especially when the very same effect got classified as merely "stinky" fourteen levels ago.This is a power that screams for a rewrite.</blockquote>

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