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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6993261" data-attributes="member: 42582">I put this into a separate reply because I didn't think it was really related to the main topic of the thread. As I'm writing it, though, maybe I'm wrong about that. But it can stay in a separate post.The last question here is odd to me. The PCs in your game confront some goblins and attack them - what difference does it make if you just allow them to win (rather than make the players roll dice)?One is clouds-to-clouds (as in the OP diagram, no check is required for the PC to take the high ground). The other is clouds-to-cubes-to-clouds. The difference between the two is pretty basic to RPGing, isn't it? To pacing, to generating dramatic moments, etc? That's the whole point of "Say 'yes' or roll the dice" - if nothing dramatic is at stake, then actions succeed; but otherwise set a DC and have the player roll the dice.That's what I did in this case. (If the invoker/wizard had tried it, it would probably have been an auto-success - it's impossible for that character to fail Arcana and Religion checks. But that character didn't want to be party to it. Part of the significance of the event, in the fiction, is who was doing it.)I also think you're exaggerating the sense in which it is fiat. I used the DC-by-level table; that's not fiat. I set the DC at Hard; as I mentioned, that's consistent with the guidelines in RC. I allowed the spending of a HS, in circumstances where there was an appropriate cloud-to-cube arrow ("I'm an emergent primordial and mighty chaos sorcerer who is the new Lord of Entropy followng Ygorl's defeat"), to grant a bonus as per DMG 2 (p 86):Give some thought to things the characters might do aside from using skills . . . A good rule of thumb is to treat these other options as if they were secondary skills in the challenge . . . Here are some options . . . sacrificing a healing surge.Secondary skills do things like "[g]ive one or more characters a bonus to a check" (DMG 2 p 85); and the PHB (p 179) and DMG (p 75) cap the bonus for assistance from others at +8 (= a maximum of four +2 bonuses; +2 is the default bonus for help or advantageous circumstances in 4e, as per PHB pp 179,279 and DMG pp 42, 75).Allowing the use of Stretch Spell to allow the scheme to incorporate the darkness is also consistent with the advice in the PHB (p 259), DMG2 (p 86) and DMG (p 74):Noncombat encounters focus on skills, utility powers, and your own wits (not your character’s), although sometimes attack powers can come in handy as well. Using an encounter power that's not directly relevant to the challenge might give the character a bonus to a subsequent skill check Characters might have access to utility powers or rituals that can help them. These might allow special uses of skills, perhaps with a bonus.In this case, use of the power made something possible (ie making the zone of entropy impenetrably dark) that otherwise would not have been.As far as I can tell, this is exactly how p 42 and 4e skill improvisation is meant to work.Here's another example (involving a physical challenge - leaping from a giant frosthawk onto Ygorl, as he tries to flee the PCs):[sblock][/sblock]One could equally ask here - why require rolls? They've come up with a crazy plan, so why not let them succeed?My answer is that the rolls are what makes it a game rather than just a story told by the GM in response to questions and suggestions from the players. With rolls, sometimes even the best plans fail, and new ones have to be improvised:[sblock][/sblock]I don't think that combat and non-combat are in wildly different compartments here.</blockquote>

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