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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Imagicka" data-source="post: 3213129" data-attributes="member: 4621">A lot can be said about newbie players... and that everyone makes mistakes the first time out... but I'm still going to rant here...I so strongly disagree.  I agree that the problems stem from the players, but the GM allowed this mess.  The GM didn't encourage the players to work as a team, nor discourage the players who were stealing from the party.  The GM didn't discourage players from lone-wolfing it... Now he's got a mess on his hands, because everyone thinks it's cool to pull a Crowley... [spoiler]Aliester Crowley... "Do what that wilt shall be the whole of the law..."[/spoiler]Does anyone seriously expect the player who isn't having any fun to then try and curb the actions of the others, when the GM is sending the clear message that he either condones it, or is impotient or unwilling to stop it?  Then hides behind the claim that it wouldn't be fair to everyone if he did do something about this?  First and foremost this is a game, and the players look to the GM to guide the game and set the tone.  If players are taking advantage of other players, at the cost of the others' enjoyment; and the GM does nothing to discourage these actions, then that goes a long way to tell the player... "Well, they are having fun... if you don't like it...suck it up... or leave..." I believe that the DM sets the tone, and should make sure that everyone at the table is having fun, having their turn in the spotlight, and getting what they want from the game.  With no sense of nepotism.  There doesn't need to be actual just the hint of it for players to start resenting the others, the GM & the game.Now, if this was the kinda game that I was looking to run... or people were looking to play in... then I would make sure that everyone knew what kinda game we're playing up front... say to the people getting victimized... "Well... OOC you know your getting screwed over.  Do you want to step up to the plate or what?"  But not all players are coming to the table expecting to play a free-for-all game. Some are expecting to play a game where there is teamwork, and honesty, and fairness. I absolutely hate it when one party member (usually the rogue/thief) starts screwing over the other players because they weren't expecting it...then that player usually starts getting all pouty because they got caught and have to pay the price.Should the player say something?  Certainly.  Are they going to?  Probably not, because it looks like the GM is condoning the actions of the greedy players.  Like others have mentioned, the GM needs to take control and responsibility in the game.  The only way this is going to end is if the GM doesn't do anything about it, is the game is going to fall apart, players are going to leave and friendships are going to be strained. Sooner or later, these players mess up and everyone finds out what they are doing.  That's when the gelantious cube hits the fan... Just because my character doesn't know your stealing/cheating, *I* do.  Is it a player issue?  Is it a character issue?  It is both.So, who's fault is it when the players start resenting each other and the game implodes in on itself?  You just keep telling yourself it's not your fault, and stay an inch or two out of kicking distance. Mankind has got to know his limitations.I take issue with the fact that the other players don't get spot checks if the rogue starts getting light-fingered.  That is the purpose of a spot check!  Do I noticed the chest in the corner moved? Spot check!  Do I notice that the wizard in the party is a doppelganger, because he doesn't have his familiar and staff with him? Spot check!  Do I notice the rogue pocket that object he took from the enemy's corpse?  Spot check. -- Even if the GM needs to roll is secretly... fine...but he should be doing it EVERY DAMN TIME, because the rogue is trying to be secretative about it!  If the DM isn't doing rolls for it... he's cheating the players and playing favourites with the rogue.  Sooner or later, the rogue is going to roll a 1, and the cleric is going to roll a 20. If the GM isn't going to do anything to rein this game in... then I'd tell the GM... "Well, my character is going to start being selfish and self-centered, because the other characters are too.  No quarter asked, none given.  My character is now suspecious as to why the other characters are much more experienced and wealthy than my character... I'm going to start paying close attention to the other characters... during my watch at night... over several evenings, my character takes a complete inventory of their stuff.  Also, I'll talk to the wizard/sorcerer privately about this, and see if they want to help.  Nothing better than a good conspiracy"If I was playing in such as game, I'd be coup de grâce'ing the other players while it was my watch at night, once my character found out that they were stealing from me.  "What?! Evidently you want this to be a game of everyone for themselves... my character is good... he fights evil... your character is stealing from me... your evil. Period.  Roll up another character.  Oh, and make sure it isn't some 'revenge' character, hmm'kay?  You chose to play it that way, you lost.  Get over it.  Now, give me your character sheet so I can see what magick items I have now.  Oh yeah, how much XP to get for killing your thieving hide?" Just because your a rogue doesn't mean you get to steal from a fellow player. Unless we're playing a PKing game.  Tell me that up-front, so you don't get a head-start.That's a good idea about searching during a heal.  After all, we are talking touch range.  Oh yeah... print out this thread and give it to the GM... Tell him Imagicka calls him a wussy!A little story about a player who didn't really care about 'party' game-play...[sblock]This reminds me of a situation I was in a couple of years back... We had a player who's played a kender who stole from one of my characters... I had his character arrested and executed.  Or he stole from the party (being light-fingered and slipped the occational extra bobble into his pocket... until he slipped up once and paid for something with a gem we didn't know he had, which brought all sorts of questions.)Anyway, this guy stopped playing rogues and stealing from the party, only to play a barbarian.  Only because the GM got tired of it, and EVERY player would say "My character doesn't trust rogues, he watches him closely, especially when he's checking the corpses."  He made his character out to be a guide for our party, where we had to pay him a gold piece every week or month (something like that).  He didn't want to share in any party responsibility.  He didn't even fight in combat situations, just stood back and let things happen.  He'd fight if someone was threatening him..."I'm not with them! I'm just traveling with them!"  Since the GM was stingy, it was pretty advantageous for this character, because of party expenses... inns... taverns...  he didn't have to pay any...and we had to pay him a daily wage on top of that.  We didn't have any party treasure for months and months of gaming time, and had gained 3-4 levels.  Pretty soon I and the other players finally raised the issue with the GM.  Next session... party treasure! So, we're there dolling out the magic items, and the barbarian's player says, "So, where's my cut?"I reply, "Oh, yeah... I almost forgot!"I mock/roleplay reaching into my coin purse (dicebag) and pull out a gold piece, "There you go! There is your payment for the month.  Tell you what!  If everyone here agrees, we'll even give you a share of the money we found. But your not part of the party, you don't get any magical items."He sure soon enough joined the party after that.  Responsibilities and all![/sblock]</blockquote>

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