[CoC] - Combat and Sanity

[Lord Zardoz]

The guidelines on the d20 sanity checks are quite clear for what sort of situations should cause sanity checks except for the following areas.

1) First time a player kills another person.
2) Player watches a PC get killed in a gunfight.


I beleive that the first two should cause a Sanity check, but I am uncertain what sort of range it should be? 0/1d6 or higher?

Anyway, I would like to know what the rest of you think on that subject.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Shapermc]

1) First time a player kills another person.
2) Player watches a PC get killed in a gunfight.

1) At the most I would say 0/1d2, why? Well because It is not like they just ran into it, they were expecting to kill this person or they would not have finished combat in this manner (would have tried to grappel) none the less the time of combat prepairs them mentally a little bit even if they were not expecting to kill anyone that morning.

2)Depends. If it was like a sniper and they never saw it comming (even if it is a NPC) I would say 0/1d6. But if it is a long combat that ended in death of another PC I would say 0/1d4. They were still aware of the danger and they could slightly mentally prepair for it (considering that if I got into a gunfight my first thought would be "Ohhhh crap! Someone is going to get killed."). This does not mean that they would not loose any sanity, just not alot and most of woul be because even though they thought that someone might die it is still different seeing some one die no matter how much you prepair.

I think that #1 would only be a one time situation. After that it is not such a shock anymore.

 

[danzig138]

1) First time a player kills another person.

I would say no more than 0/1D3, comparable to: surprised to find a human corpse or body part (page 48).

2) Player watches a PC get killed in a gunfight.

That depends on wheter or not the PC is a friend. If he is a friend, then it might fall under "Witnessing a friend's violent death" (page 48), which calls for 0/1D6. Even if it was a friend, unless he was chewed up by an automatic weapon pretty badly, I'd say 0/1D3 or 1D4 at most. If it isn't really a friend, then I'd go with 0/1D3 or 1d2 at the most.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

The guidelines on the d20 sanity checks are quite clear for what sort of situations should cause sanity checks except for the following areas.

1) First time a player kills another person.
2) Player watches a PC get killed in a gunfight.


I beleive that the first two should cause a Sanity check, but I am uncertain what sort of range it should be? 0/1d6 or higher?

Anyway, I would like to know what the rest of you think on that subject.

END COMMUNICATION

I believe that both of these fall into the 0/1d6 range, shocking, horrible, but not unnatural. Having seen the effects of how both killing and witnessing a killing affect people I actually think that if anything this is a trifle low.

Bear in mind that most people fall into the range of 50-55 San, if the damage is less than 5 then he has no chance of having a bout of even 'temporary' insanity. (Gods I hate that term...)

If you ever see people after a car wreck, let alone a crime of violence, you will quickly find that a lot more than 1 in 6 suffer shock and often recurring effects.

The odds by the game system makes this closer to about 1 in 12. (Assume 10 Int, 50 San, and 5 or 6 as the chance to even have to roll for temporary insanity.)

1d2 or 1d3 is just way too low, there being no chance of any real repercussions.

The Auld Grump

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Thanks for the input.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[danzig138]

Re: Re: [CoC] - Combat and Sanity

If you ever see people after a car wreck, let alone a crime of violence, you will quickly find that a lot more than 1 in 6 suffer shock and often recurring effects.

I've been in a car wreck. I was one of the drivers. It put two of my friends in the hospital, one with a split-open skull and one with a broken back. My other three passengers escaped with minor cuts and scrapes, and I came out of it with a damaged knee and some cracked ribs. The person whose car I hit was in pretty bad shape also. I've also watched my cousin get shot in the head (he lived, funny story), and I've seen a woman get shot in a parking lot and die. That was from about 10 feet away. I'm pretty sure I'm not insane*. I know how these events affected the people involved and witnessing. I say 1D6 is too high. So I guess, since it's isn't a sliding scale based on Wisdom, it depends on how sensitive you want the characters in your game to be. Me, I expect them to be as sensitive as the people I've known, whcih it to say, not very.

*I don't think I'm insane, but my SO has insisted for years that I am a sociopath. So takes this as you will.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I've been in a car wreck. I was one of the drivers. It put two of my friends in the hospital, one with a split-open skull and one with a broken back. My other three passengers escaped with minor cuts and scrapes, and I came out of it with a damaged knee and some cracked ribs. The person whose car I hit was in pretty bad shape also. I've also watched my cousin get shot in the head (he lived, funny story), and I've seen a woman get shot in a parking lot and die. That was from about 10 feet away. I'm pretty sure I'm not insane*. I know how these events affected the people involved and witnessing. I say 1D6 is too high. So I guess, since it's isn't a sliding scale based on Wisdom, it depends on how sensitive you want the characters in your game to be. Me, I expect them to be as sensitive as the people I've known, whcih it to say, not very.

*I don't think I'm insane, but my SO has insisted for years that I am a sociopath. So takes this as you will.

Using 1d2 or 1d3 means almost NEVER having lasting effects (In fact never with even average Wisdom). I had a girlfriend who woke up crying every night for a week following a shooting at a local bar, so I know it can affect people. The bartender was someone my girlfriend saw maybe once or twice a week, by no means a ‘close friend’. She had occasional nightmares for a month or so afterwards. (All of which counts as ‘Temporary Insanity’ in CoC) Other friends who were in the bar also suffered similar effects, the most common during the event being stunned and immobile for the duration. Immediately afterwards several suffered hysterics - again one of the effects given for temporary insanity in CoC, others babbled about what they had just seen, whether or not there was anyone listening. (Oh my God, oh my God, she’s been shot...), still others suffered a feeling of numbness and distance from everything going on around them. Yet more Temp Insanity effects in CoC. Going by what the one friend of mine who went to a psychiatrist over the event said about one in ten suffer longer term effects, lasting weeks or months.

The odds of having to check for temp. insanity at 1d6 is 33.33 % for a witness with 10-11 Wisdom, with the odds of failing the Sanity test being an average of 47.5% for a total chance of failure being about 15.8% or less than one in twenty. The odds of a longer term effect being a neat 30% to last for several hours. There were perhaps thirty people in the bar when the shooting occured, a lot more than 2 suffered effects that would be classed as 'temporary insanity' in CoC.

Bear in mind that hysteric, numbness and babbling (both coherently and not) are common temporary insanity effects in CoC, so some people who have lost Sanity or suffered a bout of ‘temporary insanity’ may not have registered as such in your mind. One way to think of temporary inanity is ‘shock’. Did you feel shocked when the shooting took place? Numb or frightened? Shaky in the knees? I was not present in Shooter’s when the murder took place, but I know how I felt when I saw my niece getting hit by a taxi, seeing it and not being able to do anything about it, the world slowing down and snapping into absolute focus, the shakes afterwards. (As it happens my niece survived, despite the driver then backing up and trying to drive away, my niece still caught under the car.)

It is also interesting to note that in the aftermath of shock males have a tendency to brush their reactions aside and even boast of 'not being frightened' while females are more likely to discuss their reactions.

As for how sensitive heroes should be in CoC, Lovecraft’s heroes would swoon at some of the darndest things.

The Auld Grump

 

[danzig138]

Did you feel shocked when the shooting took place? Numb or frightened? Shaky in the knees? I was not present in Shooter’s when the murder took place, but I know how I felt when I saw my niece getting hit by a taxi, seeing it and not being able to do anything about it, the world slowing down and snapping into absolute focus, the shakes afterwards. (As it happens my niece survived, despite the driver then backing up and trying to drive away, my niece still caught under the car.)

After being blinded with mathematics (dirty pool man), I'll go as high as 1D4, but that's it. As for how I felt, nope. no shakes, no knocking kness, no fear, or anything like that. I felt the same way I felt when my cousin got shot in the head. I though "Well, ain't that a -expletive deleted-", followed by an assesment of how to take the guy down should he turn his weapon on me. When I got in my wreck, I pretty much felt the same way, wit the additional thought of "Crap!". Now again, to color my personal experiences, my SO also says that I have an unusual detachment that seems to prevent me from becoming panicked or particularly excited. Funny story...the other day I was walking through the living room and That 70's Show was on. AS I walked past, I noticed that it was going off. I noticed that because they were doing the end dialogue from Soap (one of my favorite shows), and they showed Chuck and Bob, and I said loudly "Hey! It's Chuck and Bob!" My SO responded with something long the lines of "That's the most excited I've ever seen you get. I'm kind of mad about that I think." Now we've been together for more than 10 years, so I admit, I may be some statistical anomaly.

As for how sensitive heroes should be in CoC, Lovecraft’s heroes would swoon at some of the darndest things.

True, that.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

As a side note detatchment is in and of itself often a sign of both 'temporary insanity'and the more permanent kind.

But then again several courts have ruled that so is the playing of role-playing games.

After being blinded with mathematics (dirty pool man)

Bad math at that I should have said one in five not one in twenty. I really should be sleeping...

I'll go as high as 1D4, but that's it.

As I pointed out 1d4 does not allow the range of reactions displayed under times of such stress. ( A Wisdom of 8 or less being required to even have a 25% chance of having to roll for temporary insanity.) Remember rolling for San loss does not mean losing the maximum San, nor in fact failing the roll in the first place. (in the case of 1d6 the mean is only 3.5)

To make another point most police departments require officers who have shot and killed in the line of duty to take both a leave of absence from street duty and to seek counseling The same is often required in the event of the officer witnessing the death of a partner. (Perhaps a good example of the closeness of a typical group of investigators, not necessarilly friends but close.)

Being 'hardened' against the San loss of seeing someone die or of killing someone might make a decent feat, especially for characters who survived the Great War. On the flip side an awful lot of people came back from the front shattered wrecks, 'Shell shocked' being the term in vogue at the time, becoming 'battle fatigue' in time for WWII, while 'post-traumatic stress disorder' has become the new sound bite. It is telling that 'Temporary Insanity' from witnessing a death is so common that several terms have been coined to describe it.

The Auld Grump, signing off

 

[danzig138]

As a side note detatchment is in and of itself often a sign of both 'temporary insanity'and the more permanent kind.

Interesting...

The same is often required in the event of the officer witnessing the death of a partner. (Perhaps a good example of the closeness of a typical group of investigators, not necessarilly friends but close.)

While I can't fight the math (not my forte), and despite trauma victims IRL, which I concede to you, on the watching another PC get killed, I still say that if the person isn't a friend, then it shouldn't carry the same penalty as Witnessing a Friend's Violent death. While people can be easily traumatized, they are less concerned for those who are not close, in my experience. Now, I could see 2d3-1 (1-5), but it just offends my sensibilities that seeing an acquaintance die would be as traumatic as a friend's death. I would also consider some gunshot deaths as not qualifiying as particularly violent, at least not violent in the way I assume the book means, which I take as "grisly". Now, as I noted on a different thread, I think maybe the Sanity loss for your first kill should be based on the way in which you performed the kill, and the appearance of it. Taking someone down from100 yards with a high-powered rifle is going to have a different effect than doing it up close with a knife.

Being 'hardened' against the San loss of seeing someone die or of killing someone might make a decent feat

That's a great idea. I have feats IMG that allow characters to reduce the Sanity loss incurred from casting spells, wouldn't be too much of a stretch to include ones the simply reduce sanity loss in general. Oh well, when it's all said and done, I don't think we're going to agree completely mainly because we seem to be coming at the question from two very different directions. I've enjoyed the argument though. Seems like most of the time, when I post in a discussion, I don't get many responses. MY SO says it's because I make good points. I figure most of the time, people just don't know what the heck I'm talking about.