[CoC] Random questions for gun people...

[Tiefling]

I was reading Call of Cthulhu the other day and a couple questions about the gun section popped into my head.

1. The description of semi-automatic action mentions that on both a single-action and a double-action gun, a round must be in the chamber before it can be fired. Is it neccessary to put a round in the chamber by opening the chamber and putting it there directly? Is there some sort of switch that you pull to move a round from the magazine to the chamber? Is a round automatically loaded in when a magazine or a stripper clip is inserted?

2. Does a caliber with two numbers and a dash (such as ".30-30") mean that the number after the dash is in thousandths and ten-thousandths of an inch? And if so, who first looked at a .30 caliber bullet and said, "You know, I think this needs another 3 thousandths of an inch"?

 

[alsih2o]

I was reading Call of Cthulhu the other day and a couple questions about the gun section popped into my head.

1. The description of semi-automatic action mentions that on both a single-action and a double-action gun, a round must be in the chamber before it can be fired. Is it neccessary to put a round in the chamber by opening the chamber and putting it there directly? Is there some sort of switch that you pull to move a round from the magazine to the chamber? Is a round automatically loaded in when a magazine or a stripper clip is inserted?

pulling back the slide should chamber a round, they don't go in automatically, that is what people are doing when the pull back the top of the gun making that "cha-chink" noise

 

[buzzard]

I was reading Call of Cthulhu the other day and a couple questions about the gun section popped into my head.

1. The description of semi-automatic action mentions that on both a single-action and a double-action gun, a round must be in the chamber before it can be fired. Is it neccessary to put a round in the chamber by opening the chamber and putting it there directly? Is there some sort of switch that you pull to move a round from the magazine to the chamber? Is a round automatically loaded in when a magazine or a stripper clip is inserted?

Most of the above question was already addressed. However there is an addendum. When a semi-automatic (or full automatic for that matter- same principles involved) weapon runs out of ammo, the slide (pistol) or bolt (rifle or SMG) locks back. You then insert a magazine (stripper clip or whatnot) and hit the slide (or bolt) release and it loads the weapon. Thus there is a switch which simply loads the weapon, but only in certain circumstances.

2. Does a caliber with two numbers and a dash (such as ".30-30") mean that the number after the dash is in thousandths and ten-thousandths of an inch? And if so, who first looked at a .30 caliber bullet and said, "You know, I think this needs another 3 thousandths of an inch"?

The .30-30 has to do with the history of the gun. The first 30 designates the caliber, while the second harkens back to the days of black powder arms. The second 30 indicated 30 grains of black powder loaded into the shell. This is a fairly common designation in shells which originated in the late 19th century. Other examples are the .45-70 and the .44-40.

To confuse things even further, in a .30-06 (another common round) the second number has nothing to do with a property of the shell, but indicates the year in which it was adopted into military service. It was the 30 caliber round adopted in 1906 (as the ammo for the 1906 Springfield bolt action rifle). Other common designations include special, magnum, and short.

Buzzard
your friendly neighborhood gun nut

 

[Tarek]

Loading a gun goes like this:

Semi-auto pistol - take out empty magazine. Put loaded magazine in magazine well. Pull slide back and let it snap forward to load the first round.

After that, there's only a small distinction between single-action and double-action semi-automatics. With a single-action, you need to make sure the hammer is cocked back first for the first shot. With a double-action, you don't need to think about it.

After the first shot, the hammer is automatically cocked and ready to fire the next round regardless of the action.

Yes, you can put a round into the chamber manually, so even if you take a full magazine out of the firearm it might still be loaded; this is one of the TOP reasons that safety tip #1 is "Always assume a firearm is loaded."

As for the .30-30 and the .30-06, the naming conventions aren't what you'd think. They stand for, respectively, .30 caliber of 19?30 and .30 caliber of 1906, IIRC, but I'm SURE that the -30 and -06 parts of the name have nothing to do with the actual caliber of the bullet. There are a lot of differences between the rounds, mostly having to do with the length and shape of the cartridge and how much powder is behind the bullet. They are, incidentally, both in use today.

Just to give you an idea about how little caliber alone matters; in the .380, the 9mm and the .357 cartridges the bullets are all ACTUALLY the same caliber. They're not the same weight, the cartridge lengths are VERY different, and there's a heck of a lot more powder behind the .357 than behind the .380, but the bullets themselves are exactly the same width.

You can put a 9mm round into a .357 revolver and still have it shoot accurately. The .357 round probably won't even fit in a 9mm revolver, and even if it did the revolver would probably blow up in your hands if you tried to shoot it.

Tarek
who was once very keen on firearms until he realized exactly how expensive that hobby is...

 

[Tiefling]

Thanks! Someone told me that the number after the dash had to do with size, but I figured I'd check up on it. Good thing.

 

[buzzard]

Just to give you an idea about how little caliber alone matters; in the .380, the 9mm and the .357 cartridges the bullets are all ACTUALLY the same caliber. They're not the same weight, the cartridge lengths are VERY different, and there's a heck of a lot more powder behind the .357 than behind the .380, but the bullets themselves are exactly the same width.

You can put a 9mm round into a .357 revolver and still have it shoot accurately. The .357 round probably won't even fit in a 9mm revolver, and even if it did the revolver would probably blow up in your hands if you tried to shoot it.

Tarek
who was once very keen on firearms until he realized exactly how expensive that hobby is...

You are not quite right. If you had made the leap to reloading (which is what makes the hobby cheap) you would know. Actually a 9mm, .380 and .357 all use slightly different bullets. The 9mm and the .380 (also known as the 9mm kurtz) are the same bullet diameter. The 9mm (9mm parabellum or 9mm luger) is also known as the 9x19mm. The .380 is the 9x17mm. The bullets in both cases are .355 inches in diameter, though they vary substantially in weight (9x19 rounds are 125-147 grains, 9x17 are around 90-100 grains). The bullet in a .357 magnum is just that, .357 inches in diameter. You might be able to shoot a 9mm in a .357, though I would certainly not recommend it. The 9mm is not a rimmed round so I don't think it will work well in a revolver. While there are 9mm revolvers, they use half moon clips.

I have loaded for all these calibers, and they are all over the map really.

Buzzard

 

[Leopold]

guns..lots of guns...D20 modern can't come soon enough..

 

[Tratyn Runewind]

Hello!

Let the pedantic firearms-enthusiast trivia begin!

Posted by alsih2o:
pulling back the slide should chamber a round, they don't go in automatically, that is what people are doing when the pull back the top of the gun making that "cha-chink" noise

For the vast majority of semi-autos, this is true. However, there are designs that are made to be loaded by literally stuffing a loose cartridge into an empty chamber. They are usually engineered-for-simplicity designs that absorb recoil and close the action with very strong springs that would be difficult to pull back manually. The ones I've heard of are typically small pocket pistols in .25 ACP or .32 ACP caliber, like the Beretta Jetfire and its descendants the Bobcat and Tomcat. These have hinged "tip-up" barrels that allow direct loading (and unloading) of the chamber.

Posted by buzzard:
You might be able to shoot a 9mm in a .357, though I would certainly not recommend it. The 9mm is not a rimmed round so I don't think it will work well in a revolver. While there are 9mm revolvers, they use half moon clips.

Here's a little something that might interest you, buzzard: the Medusa, a "multi-caliber" revolver designed to fire a number of different cartridges in the .38 caliber/9mm range, both rimmed and rimless. Its designers were partly inspired by the Smith and Wesson Model 547, a 9mmP revolver developed some years back for possible use by military police (who might have wanted ammo compatibility with the U. S. military's then-new 9mm service pistols) and for foreign sales potential. Neither of these revolvers use half-moon clips; they use other methods to hold and headspace cartridges (methods which were new and cranky in the 547, supposedly giving it some durability and reliability problems).

Here's another page on the weapon by its makers.

Hope this helps, or at least proves interesting!

 

[Tarek]

Doh

Buzzard, I just realized I was thinking of the .38 special when I was talking about loading the 9mm in a .357 revolver. That was one way to keep things cheaper, as was purchasing the reloads that the gun store and range was selling. Fairly reliable but somewhat dirtier than factory ammo. It made cleaning my guns a real chore...

Thanks for the corrections, but my point stands; .380, 9mm, .38 special and .357 magnum all have bullets of exactly the same caliber/diameter; .357 of an inch. Unless the definition of caliber has changed and now includes the bullet's length as well...

I thought about getting into reloading some years ago, I even have a dillon press lying around somewhere, but I realized that I really didn't want to have to set up a room in my apartment just for reloading; I'm pretty sure that stray powder grains might be something of a fire hazard, and it would boost my condo insurance rates sky-high.

Tarek

 

[Piratecat]

The answer is "d20 System Games" for 300. And the question is....?

Yes, you in the 2nd row?

That's right! "What forum do CoC questions go in?"

I'll slide it over.