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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nytmare" data-source="post: 5149053" data-attributes="member: 55178">Wow, this response has been sitting, unsent, in this window for three days...  Guess I should finish it and submit it.Does pre-retroactive work better for you?  I don't see any difference between the following: "From now on, I am going to defend all the time.""I am going to defend before something tries to attack me." "When I walk down this hall, I am going to defend in case something tries to attack me.""Wait, you just attacked me?  I was defending against it."There's no need to introduce will checks and extra house rules because it is already covered by the existing "the DM decides if there is surprise, then everyone rolls for initiative."  It's not that I'm trying to protect myself from my players, it's that there are already rules that cover it and that I don't believe in making house rules that don't stand on their own feet.  If you are trying to make a good rule, it has to be able to be used by anyone, in any game, and not be abused. In writing this out I see that I wrongly assumed that you were only describing a "we open the door so that we can surprise whatever is inside" encounter, but that there's no reason why you'd need to do that.  You can, by the existing rules, open/kick the door (minor action) and then take total defense (standard) but only if you're giving up surprise.  Mixing the two scenarios we end up with:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Both groups want to go first.  The door guy wants to defend before someone might shoot him, archer guy wants to be ready to shoot someone as soon as they come in the room.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Only one group (outside) is in a position to initiate combat because they are opening the door, and that is what starts the whole process.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Both groups are in a position to gain surprise.  The group outside could burst in (minus the door opener) and each of them could get a single action.  The guy inside could notice the door opening and take a single action to ready.</li> </ul>If door guy wants to surprise someone who might be in the room:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Both groups make perception checks before combat starts.  Both parties are attempting to be stealthy, so the perception checks are matched up against the other group's stealth check(s).  I would use passive stealth and perception checks for the archer since he's just sitting around, waiting for something to happen, and I'd probably give him a +5 bonus to each cause he's quietly staring at a door.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Combat starts and everyone rolls initiative!</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Everyone who can act in the surprise round acts.  Let's pretend that both the door guy and archer can both act in the surprise round.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the door guy has the higher initiative, the door guy kicks the door down, his friends charge in whenever they can and bum rush the archer, the archer does whatever he wants on his initiative</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the archer has the higher initiative, the archer readies an attack, the door guy kicks the door down and gets shot in the face, then his friends charge in and bum rush the archer.</li> </ul>If the door guy does NOT want to surprise someone who might be in the room because he wants to be defending when the door opens:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Both groups make perception checks before combat starts.  Both parties are attempting to be stealthy, so the perception checks are matched up against the other group's stealth check(s).  I would use passive stealth and perception checks for the archer since he's just sitting around, waiting for something to happen, and I'd give him a +5 bonus to each cause he's quietly staring at a door.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Combat starts and everyone rolls initiative.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the archer can act in the surprise round he readies an action to shoot the first person he sees.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the archer does NOT act in the surprise round, but has a higher initiative, he readies and shoots the defending door guy when he kicks in the door.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the archer does not act in the surprise round and has a lower initiative, the door gets kicked down, the door guy defends, and combat happens as per normal.</li> </ul>Combat has to start for some reason, and it is the DM's job to figure out why it starts. Does it start because the fighter spotted a sniper?  Does it start because the sniper shoots at the fighter? Let's pretend that we have a situation where every possible bit of information regarding the ambush is known.  The fighter has 100% complete omniscient knowledge of the situation.  He knows how many people there are, exactly where they are positioned, when they're going to be able to see him, and what tactics they're going to use. When he gets there, he won't even need to make a spot check to see the snipers, because they will be effectively standing right out in the open.In this instance, at what point does the fight start?  The DM has effectively built a (what I'd consider really lame) encounter where both sides start facing each other across an empty field where they have as many rounds as they want before they get to within striking range.The fight starts because the fighter becomes a target for the snipers.  If everybody knows about everybody else, and nobody is nailed to one single spot, it is entirely a question of who goes first.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Everybody rolls for initiative.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the fighter has the higher initiative, the fighter defends, moves into range of the snipers, then the snipers shoot him.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the snipers have the higher initiative, the snipers move up, shoot the fighter, and the fighter defends.</li> </ul>Q: "Why can't we do those actions before combat, if we're allowed to do them in combat."A: "You can do those actions before combat.  Combat however, translates before-combat activities into a series of abstract, round by round snippets instead of a realistic flow."Actually not to veer off target, but I need to throw out a question for someone more rules-savvy than I.  Can you can ready an attack for the start of someone's turn?  Basically waiting for the break between one total defense action stopping, and the next one starting.  If so, that's a perfect mechanical explanation of what's happening and where the combat round is starting.Surprise means that you either know that something  is there or you know that something is going to happen.Crouching outside a door with your guns drawn, so that you can kick it open and arrest the perp is entirely what surprise is about.</blockquote>

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