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<blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5150114" data-attributes="member: 71571">Well, if both are aware of the other, then there's no surprise round, initiative goes as normal.Figured that was obvious-- the only time there's a surprise round is when there are combatants not aware of their opponents.Notice, that's 'aware of their opponents' not 'aware of possible opposition.'So, doing the kick down the door idea---First the party rolls their perception to check if they are aware there's actually enemies behind the door.&nbsp; This is'd be a pretty easy roll to make, unless the other side is actually being stealthy themselves.&nbsp; The other side also does the same thing to them.Any side that has a success can use free actions to alert the rest of the party.&nbsp; At this point, if there is time, some creatures on one side or the other might go for cover, hide etc.&nbsp; This affords them a Stealth check against the passive perceptions of the opposition.&nbsp; If the players are aware of general opposition, if they're smart (and not carrying light sources) they can be stealthed before the initial perception.&nbsp; That is where they have their chance to get their surprise round, by taking actions that make the opposition unaware of them, not by saying 'we're being more defensive' or kicking down doors or whatever.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DracoSuave, post: 5150114, member: 71571"] Well, if both are aware of the other, then there's no surprise round, initiative goes as normal. Figured that was obvious-- the only time there's a surprise round is when there are combatants not aware of their opponents. Notice, that's 'aware of their opponents' not 'aware of possible opposition.' So, doing the kick down the door idea--- First the party rolls their perception to check if they are aware there's actually enemies behind the door. This is'd be a pretty easy roll to make, unless the other side is actually being stealthy themselves. The other side also does the same thing to them. Any side that has a success can use free actions to alert the rest of the party. At this point, if there is time, some creatures on one side or the other might go for cover, hide etc. This affords them a Stealth check against the passive perceptions of the opposition. If the players are aware of general opposition, if they're smart (and not carrying light sources) they can be stealthed before the initial perception. That is where they have their chance to get their surprise round, by taking actions that make the opposition unaware of them, not by saying 'we're being more defensive' or kicking down doors or whatever. [/QUOTE]

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