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<blockquote data-quote="Kingreaper" data-source="post: 5150234" data-attributes="member: 83870">Well, if they both know when the fight will start, and how (ie. the advancing down an open plain scenario) then they have both realised long before combat proper commences.So, no surprise round.If the defenders know when the fight will start, and how, but the attackers do not (ie. the clanking loudly through a dungeon scenario) then the defenders get surprise.note: This can be decided by stealth checks, as specifically explained in the DMG.If the attackers know when the fight will start, and how, but the defenders do not (ie. the lazy guardsmen playing poker scenario) then the attackers get surprise.Note: see stealth Vs. passive perception, as above.If neither party knows when the fight will start, or how, then no-one gets a surprise round.There are more complicated scenarios (some also in the DMG, and some not)These include: Some members of each party are aware, some aren't (simply, those who made the perception, get to act)There's a fight going on already and someone sneaks up on it (don't think 4e has this one covered in the DMG, not sure, I'd be inclined to go with &quot;they get a surprise round, then get slotted into initiative&quot;)Two fights accidentally collide, due to strange circumstances (very rare, and likely very noisy, so people are unlikely to be surprised)tl;dr: stealth Vs. perception is the basic decider of surprise.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kingreaper, post: 5150234, member: 83870"] Well, if they both know when the fight will start, and how (ie. the advancing down an open plain scenario) then they have both realised long before combat proper commences. So, no surprise round. If the defenders know when the fight will start, and how, but the attackers do not (ie. the clanking loudly through a dungeon scenario) then the defenders get surprise. note: This can be decided by stealth checks, as specifically explained in the DMG. If the attackers know when the fight will start, and how, but the defenders do not (ie. the lazy guardsmen playing poker scenario) then the attackers get surprise. Note: see stealth Vs. passive perception, as above. If neither party knows when the fight will start, or how, then no-one gets a surprise round. There are more complicated scenarios (some also in the DMG, and some not) These include: Some members of each party are aware, some aren't (simply, those who made the perception, get to act) There's a fight going on already and someone sneaks up on it (don't think 4e has this one covered in the DMG, not sure, I'd be inclined to go with "they get a surprise round, then get slotted into initiative") Two fights accidentally collide, due to strange circumstances (very rare, and likely very noisy, so people are unlikely to be surprised) tl;dr: stealth Vs. perception is the basic decider of surprise. [/QUOTE]

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