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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Amaroq" data-source="post: 5151232" data-attributes="member: 15470">Hmm - I don't think Surprise is a red herring. I think the entire line of the conversation hinges around a complete understanding of Surprise.I want to eliminate some of the confounding variables for an example: - Without specifying which side are the PC's - Without worrying about munchkin-ism - Without having "obscured line of sight" - Without the action of "opening a door"Lets imagine an ambush situation:Group A is traveling warily along a road, weapons out and on the lookout for an ambush. Group B is lying in wait, hidden along a ridge to the north.Group B have their bows out, ready to fire down into the road. Group B have effectively readied their actions: the trigger could be "on the lead wagon reaching point X" or the trigger could be "on our leader's signal", etc. That trigger point is reached. What happens?I can see three possible answers:1. You determine Surprise per the normal rules, with Group B's arrow volley constituting their action in the Surprise round, should they get a Surprise round. Option 1-a: If any members of Group A make a Perception check to spot Group B before the ambush, there is no Surprise round. Option 1-b: Any members of Group A which made a Perception check to spot Group B before the ambush join all members of Group B in a Surprise round.2. You consider combat to have started, with a Surprise round, the moment after Group B unleashed the arrows. (Group B get to fire another arrow in the Surprise round, or come charging down the hillside, etc))3. You consider combat to have started with Group B's arrow volley, and roll Initiative per normal rules - effectively allowing Group B an arrow shot "before combat starts", or allowing Group B a guaranteed Surprise round.Have I missed an option? #2 and #3 bother me.I honestly don't mean to set them up as straw-men - but I don't see a RAW argument for either of them. If you do see a RAW argument for either of them, please spell it out for me!If you support #2 or #3, would your support for that position differ if you were a member of Group A and a DM were allowing that to a group of monsters against you?If you don't support #2 or #3, but do support the idea of entering Total Defense before a combat starts, please explain to me how that is mechanically different from #2 or #3.This may be a case where we simply perceive the rules around the start of combat very differently from each other!That's a good question - and I think the answer is all about Stealth, Perception, tactical positioning, and Surprise. Use Stealth to approach an enemy unawares.Use Cover.Use Concealment.Position your ranged/support troops behind Difficult Terrain.    (E.g., "taking the high ground")Attack from an unexpected direction.Tactical reconnaissance so you know what's on the other side of the door.Set up mutually reinforcing positions.</blockquote>

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