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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8828006" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>If a theory is widely (and easily) misunderstood in a way which not only contradicts its core premise, but actively injects an inflammatory and prejudiced perspective, one which was plausibly the intent of the original proposition (given you admit it arose, or at least gained traction, in part to reify edition war gripes into putatively objective claims), it seems more reasonable to say "throw it out and start over," not "but it's got a kernel of good beneath all the dung!"</p><p></p><p></p><p>And framing it as (effectively) "dirty strategy" vs "clean tactics" is interesting, but I must beg your forgiveness for remaining rather skeptical if it bears out all that far. As they say, once bitten, twice shy.</p><p></p><p>From what I'm seeing, we have at least three axes proposed for differentiating the goal/purpose and expression of combat in a D&D-like system. They are, if I haven't missed anything:</p><p>Player Methods: Tactics vs Strategy (blow-by-blow action or vs campaign logistics)</p><p>Player Attitude: Heroic vs Pragmatic (meritoriousness and discipline vs ruthlessness and guile)</p><p>Gameplay Function: Narrative vs Challenge (genre enforcement or theme examination vs entertaining mechanics or puzzle-solving)</p><p></p><p>None of these is a <em>true</em> axis, in the sense that it is possible to make some efforts in both directions for all three. But most D&D-like games will have a metaphorical "center" which does fall somewhere along this spectrum.</p><p></p><p>Early D&D would be <em>very</em> heavily Strategic/Pragmatic/Challenge. 3e was <em>intended</em> to be Tactical/Heroic/Narrative, but because of the massive flaws in the system, it actually ends up encouraging more Strategic/Pragmatic/Narrative combat (because well-built spellcasters, already a Strategic-leaning element, are nearly always able to win any single <em>combat</em> and thus the difficulty shifts to whittling away spell slots and controlling rest/recovery rates.) 4e went full bore Tactical/Heroic, but took a surprisingly neutral stance on the third axis, providing many tools to enable a heavy Narrative focus despite clearly aiming the system toward Challenge. For a not-formally-D&D example, 13th Age would be Tactical/Heroic/mildly Narrative.</p><p></p><p>And then 5e has intentionally tried to avoid ever taking a stand on any of them. It isn't particularly Strategic nor Tactical, more by dearth of either than by active presence of both. It isn't particularly Heroic nor Pragmatic, other than the lingering influence of 3e charop stuff which it generally tries to mitigate or even eliminate. And it isn't particularly interested in either Narrative or Challenge, since it doesn't use the typical tools of the former (e.g. monsters don't play by PC rules, thus dodging the "verisimilitude" side of this axis, but there's also near-zero "storygame" influence on 5e) and is so mechanically flat and minimally balanced as to struggle to provide the latter.</p><p></p><p>Or, to give my own turn on the "everyone's second favorite" (because I assure you it ain't mine!), it's the "never do anything that might draw enough attention to upset anyone" edition. The Caspar Milquetoast: slide inoffensively off whatever preferences people bring, in the hope that the critical mass of D&D tropes will work. Of course, this is absolutely me bringing in my own bias, as I felt (and still feel) openly and intentionally (in an abstract, group way) snubbed by 5e and its design. It's hard to love something that goes out of its way to tell you that the people who said "your preferences suck and don't belong in D&D, and you should feel bad for having them" <strong>were right.</strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8828006, member: 6790260"] If a theory is widely (and easily) misunderstood in a way which not only contradicts its core premise, but actively injects an inflammatory and prejudiced perspective, one which was plausibly the intent of the original proposition (given you admit it arose, or at least gained traction, in part to reify edition war gripes into putatively objective claims), it seems more reasonable to say "throw it out and start over," not "but it's got a kernel of good beneath all the dung!" And framing it as (effectively) "dirty strategy" vs "clean tactics" is interesting, but I must beg your forgiveness for remaining rather skeptical if it bears out all that far. As they say, once bitten, twice shy. From what I'm seeing, we have at least three axes proposed for differentiating the goal/purpose and expression of combat in a D&D-like system. They are, if I haven't missed anything: Player Methods: Tactics vs Strategy (blow-by-blow action or vs campaign logistics) Player Attitude: Heroic vs Pragmatic (meritoriousness and discipline vs ruthlessness and guile) Gameplay Function: Narrative vs Challenge (genre enforcement or theme examination vs entertaining mechanics or puzzle-solving) None of these is a [I]true[/I] axis, in the sense that it is possible to make some efforts in both directions for all three. But most D&D-like games will have a metaphorical "center" which does fall somewhere along this spectrum. Early D&D would be [I]very[/I] heavily Strategic/Pragmatic/Challenge. 3e was [I]intended[/I] to be Tactical/Heroic/Narrative, but because of the massive flaws in the system, it actually ends up encouraging more Strategic/Pragmatic/Narrative combat (because well-built spellcasters, already a Strategic-leaning element, are nearly always able to win any single [I]combat[/I] and thus the difficulty shifts to whittling away spell slots and controlling rest/recovery rates.) 4e went full bore Tactical/Heroic, but took a surprisingly neutral stance on the third axis, providing many tools to enable a heavy Narrative focus despite clearly aiming the system toward Challenge. For a not-formally-D&D example, 13th Age would be Tactical/Heroic/mildly Narrative. And then 5e has intentionally tried to avoid ever taking a stand on any of them. It isn't particularly Strategic nor Tactical, more by dearth of either than by active presence of both. It isn't particularly Heroic nor Pragmatic, other than the lingering influence of 3e charop stuff which it generally tries to mitigate or even eliminate. And it isn't particularly interested in either Narrative or Challenge, since it doesn't use the typical tools of the former (e.g. monsters don't play by PC rules, thus dodging the "verisimilitude" side of this axis, but there's also near-zero "storygame" influence on 5e) and is so mechanically flat and minimally balanced as to struggle to provide the latter. Or, to give my own turn on the "everyone's second favorite" (because I assure you it ain't mine!), it's the "never do anything that might draw enough attention to upset anyone" edition. The Caspar Milquetoast: slide inoffensively off whatever preferences people bring, in the hope that the critical mass of D&D tropes will work. Of course, this is absolutely me bringing in my own bias, as I felt (and still feel) openly and intentionally (in an abstract, group way) snubbed by 5e and its design. It's hard to love something that goes out of its way to tell you that the people who said "your preferences suck and don't belong in D&D, and you should feel bad for having them" [B]were right.[/B] [/QUOTE]
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