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Combat as war, sport, or ??
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<blockquote data-quote="Redneckomancer" data-source="post: 8828017" data-attributes="member: 7038172"><p>Combat as War, Combat as Sport, Combat as Spectacle, Combat as Puzzle, Combat as Narrative, Combat as Genre Convention, Combat as Obstacle, Combat as Display, Combat as Performance, Combat as Story, Combat as Heroes, Combat as Anti-Heroes, Combat as Villain, Combat as Filler, Combat as Challenge, Combat as Breakfast, Combat as Monty Hall, Combat as Plato's Hot Dog, Combat as Console Wars, Combat as New Coke, Combat as Meme, Combat as Monty <em>Haul</em>, Combat as Noun, Combat as Verb, Combat as BBC Radio 4 Presents <em>The Lord of The Rings</em> by J.R.R. Tolkien adapted to radio by Brian Selby and Michael Bakewell.</p><p></p><p>Good, now that we have properly defined terms that we all definitely agree on, we can finally have a good solid discussion. What was the question?</p><p></p><p>No but to be a little serious, this "use niche terms as a shorthand for some thesis statement" never works out. Combat as War vs Combat As Sport is a failure from the start because as has been pointed out, combat as sport has always been an intentionally nonsense pejorative against 4e, and as time has gone has lost even that meaning. See: everyone arguing what "Sport" even constitutes in this thread. Also all dichotomies are false dichotomies.</p><p>It's much more useful to ask "What is the game trying to do with these mechanics? Is it successful? What is it <em>actually</em> doing?" which I know all the "Combat as" shorthand is supposed to wrap up in a neat little jargon but, yeah again just looking at this thread jargon just isn't going to cut it. It never has, honestly. </p><p></p><p>With that in mind, 5e combat is... weird. The feeling I get from the rules is that 5e combat wants to be</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">an exciting display of PC abilities</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">easy for the DM to run</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">be quick and hit softly with a focus more on attrition of resources over several combats (hp, spell slots, consumables) instead of managing specific short-return resources</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Have tactical bite with a focus on managing short return resources (fighter second wind, ki points, warlock spell slots)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">enforce a separation between 'realistic' actions and 'fantastical' actions (limited healing capability outside spells, very limited ability to apply conditions without spells ((itself mostly a reaction to 4e's Daily Powers for fighters))</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">make the game run smoothly with less time spent on gritty details like resting (all hp back from along rest), gear choice (most weapons don't matter outside of being On Handed, Light, or Heavy. Things like Crowbars and Torches are made extraneous by the abundance of Advantage on- abilities and Darkvision)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Ease of play for players where they only have to keep track of their own characters abilities (very few synergistic actions outside of a buff spell or Bard Inspiration, huge discouragement of handing out a lot of magic items with niche abilities)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sometimes, a big memorable set piece battle (lair/epic actions, Dragons Breaking CR)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A reinforcement of the Iconic D&D tropes that have built up over the decades (Fireball being a powerhouse spell, Iconic D&D monsters like Mind Flayers and Dragons and Beholders being the aforementioned set piece beasties)</li> </ul><p>Does it do any of this well? Well, actually, yes and no. It accomplishes a lot of this stuff, but a lot of this stuff is at odds and sometimes mutually exclusive. Yes, the "Sack of hp and multiattack" monsters are very simple for aDM to run, but they're also very boring. The average fight difficulty actually being pretty easy means it does focus more on long term attrition, but unless the Dm comes in and enforces some kind of time limit or consequence for resting beyond the 1 a day Random Encounter check, that attrition doesn't mean a whole lot. That does mean it's easier to pick up and play and just coast on the vibes and story but sometimes the story lacks bite without those consequences and stakes. The soft hitting bunch of easy monsters can also add up to Cool PC Abilities and Tactics falling flat because yeah, it looks like a Heavy Weight Champion against a run of anemic teenagers. The simplicity of the monsters also undercuts the focus on tactics because, well if your pack of hill giants can only move and attack what sort of tactics do you really need or can even employ against them? Having these very simple enemies and any battlefield changing abilities being very powerful (Hold Person) and very limited (Only as a spell, limited spell slots, concentration on one spell only etc) means the DM has to do extra work to make the battlefield tactically interesting which makes the game more complicated to prep not easier and... This is a very long post.</p><p></p><p>TL;Dr Combat as Mcdonalds- Its cheap, its fine, some people really like it, some people can't stand it, it works as an alternative when you're too tired to cook a full meal but it's never going to be as good as you need it to be.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Redneckomancer, post: 8828017, member: 7038172"] Combat as War, Combat as Sport, Combat as Spectacle, Combat as Puzzle, Combat as Narrative, Combat as Genre Convention, Combat as Obstacle, Combat as Display, Combat as Performance, Combat as Story, Combat as Heroes, Combat as Anti-Heroes, Combat as Villain, Combat as Filler, Combat as Challenge, Combat as Breakfast, Combat as Monty Hall, Combat as Plato's Hot Dog, Combat as Console Wars, Combat as New Coke, Combat as Meme, Combat as Monty [I]Haul[/I], Combat as Noun, Combat as Verb, Combat as BBC Radio 4 Presents [I]The Lord of The Rings[/I] by J.R.R. Tolkien adapted to radio by Brian Selby and Michael Bakewell. Good, now that we have properly defined terms that we all definitely agree on, we can finally have a good solid discussion. What was the question? No but to be a little serious, this "use niche terms as a shorthand for some thesis statement" never works out. Combat as War vs Combat As Sport is a failure from the start because as has been pointed out, combat as sport has always been an intentionally nonsense pejorative against 4e, and as time has gone has lost even that meaning. See: everyone arguing what "Sport" even constitutes in this thread. Also all dichotomies are false dichotomies. It's much more useful to ask "What is the game trying to do with these mechanics? Is it successful? What is it [I]actually[/I] doing?" which I know all the "Combat as" shorthand is supposed to wrap up in a neat little jargon but, yeah again just looking at this thread jargon just isn't going to cut it. It never has, honestly. With that in mind, 5e combat is... weird. The feeling I get from the rules is that 5e combat wants to be [LIST] [*]an exciting display of PC abilities [*]easy for the DM to run [*]be quick and hit softly with a focus more on attrition of resources over several combats (hp, spell slots, consumables) instead of managing specific short-return resources [*]Have tactical bite with a focus on managing short return resources (fighter second wind, ki points, warlock spell slots) [*]enforce a separation between 'realistic' actions and 'fantastical' actions (limited healing capability outside spells, very limited ability to apply conditions without spells ((itself mostly a reaction to 4e's Daily Powers for fighters)) [*]make the game run smoothly with less time spent on gritty details like resting (all hp back from along rest), gear choice (most weapons don't matter outside of being On Handed, Light, or Heavy. Things like Crowbars and Torches are made extraneous by the abundance of Advantage on- abilities and Darkvision) [*]Ease of play for players where they only have to keep track of their own characters abilities (very few synergistic actions outside of a buff spell or Bard Inspiration, huge discouragement of handing out a lot of magic items with niche abilities) [*]Sometimes, a big memorable set piece battle (lair/epic actions, Dragons Breaking CR) [*]A reinforcement of the Iconic D&D tropes that have built up over the decades (Fireball being a powerhouse spell, Iconic D&D monsters like Mind Flayers and Dragons and Beholders being the aforementioned set piece beasties) [/LIST] Does it do any of this well? Well, actually, yes and no. It accomplishes a lot of this stuff, but a lot of this stuff is at odds and sometimes mutually exclusive. Yes, the "Sack of hp and multiattack" monsters are very simple for aDM to run, but they're also very boring. The average fight difficulty actually being pretty easy means it does focus more on long term attrition, but unless the Dm comes in and enforces some kind of time limit or consequence for resting beyond the 1 a day Random Encounter check, that attrition doesn't mean a whole lot. That does mean it's easier to pick up and play and just coast on the vibes and story but sometimes the story lacks bite without those consequences and stakes. The soft hitting bunch of easy monsters can also add up to Cool PC Abilities and Tactics falling flat because yeah, it looks like a Heavy Weight Champion against a run of anemic teenagers. The simplicity of the monsters also undercuts the focus on tactics because, well if your pack of hill giants can only move and attack what sort of tactics do you really need or can even employ against them? Having these very simple enemies and any battlefield changing abilities being very powerful (Hold Person) and very limited (Only as a spell, limited spell slots, concentration on one spell only etc) means the DM has to do extra work to make the battlefield tactically interesting which makes the game more complicated to prep not easier and... This is a very long post. TL;Dr Combat as Mcdonalds- Its cheap, its fine, some people really like it, some people can't stand it, it works as an alternative when you're too tired to cook a full meal but it's never going to be as good as you need it to be. [/QUOTE]
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