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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Malmuria" data-source="post: 8828216" data-attributes="member: 7030755">To me, combat as war and combat as sport is a useful distinction, and the distinction rests on the importance of what happens in or outside of initiative.  The more that actions taken outside of initiative matter to achieving the eventual outcome, the more that the encounter could be characterized as "combat as war." Including:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">holistic encounter environments.  There are two lizardmen in room A, but that's just down the hall from room C, where there are four more lizardmen.  Noise from room A might attract the occupants of room C; if this leads to a wildly unbalanced encounter, so be it.  Meanwhile, the DM is better off preparing <a href="https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/45091/roleplaying-games/design-notes-adversary-rosters" target="_blank">adversary rosters</a> than discrete encounters.  This is also why a "dungeon crawl" is more than just going through a series of encounters in a dungeon environment; the environment incl things like noise, light, etc is an important part of the challenge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">running away, sneaking past, negotiation and diplomacy are valid strategies for dealing with encounters.  PCs can avoid combat by making allies or otherwise talking themselves out of a situation.  For example, by making friends with the goblins in one part of the dungeon, the PCs might be better able to defeat the ogres in a different area.  In this sense the phrase "combat-as" is misleading because the encounter might actually be about avoiding combat.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">choosing equipment (while managing encumbrance), bringing hirelings, and choosing spells are key to success.  By choosing spells in the dnd context I mean true vanican casting, where you have to decide to prepare two magic missles or one MM and one sleep, etc.</li> </ul>Whether those outside-of-initiative things matter will be dependent more on the the group and preferred playstyle than system.  That said, 5e doesn't force me as a player to think too much about what I'm doing outside of initiative; for example, cantrips + spontaneous casting + rituals mean I can just choose the best option in the moment, and the fact that encounters will be balanced for my level plus death saves has usually meant that brute forcing our way through them is actually the easiest method.This <a href="https://twitter.com/DanTalksGames/status/1542866754262958082" target="_blank">twitter thread</a> and the reaction in this <a href="https://youtu.be/LEoM9Z3FSHQ?t=1262" target="_blank">video</a> crystallized what these expectations are for 5e/pathfinder players.  In the video at the linked time, the speaker complains that wotc random encounter tables are not necessarily balanced for PC level, and that the advice that players should parlay doesn't work because "that's not how players think."  Seemingly, the desire is that combats are tactically challenging and that the PCs should only risk death if their in-initiative tactics are poor, but that in most cases the combats will feel challenging but not be deadly.  Pathfinder 2e is cited as a game that provides tools for the DM to "balance" encounters in this way without resorting to fudging.</blockquote>

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