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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8832177" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>"just rework all of the math to force the system to make room for the needs 5e deemed badwrongfun"... [spoiler="is not an acceptable 'oops'"]</p><p>Too Little Treasure</p><p> In the case of a tight-fisted DM, the most obvious signs </p><p>that the players are not having fun are frustration, cynicism, </p><p>and low expectations. If the characters are not finding trea-</p><p>sures commensurate to the risks they took, the players are </p><p>going to wonder if all the effort of playing is really worth it. </p><p>They become frustrated when, upon solving a devious trap, </p><p>they discover a pittance, or nothing at all.</p><p> Their cynicism shows as they start to make snide remarks </p><p>about the level of rewards they have received or are likely to </p><p>get for future efforts. Finally, they just begin to expect less and </p><p>less from the DM’s campaign, until it reaches the point where </p><p>they expect nothing and they go home! In such a campaign, </p><p>the DM may have a fine time, creating detailed settings and </p><p>elaborate adventures. But if he does not have the enthusiasm </p><p>of his players, there isn’t much point in playing.</p><p> <strong>Such a campaign <em>can</em> succeed <em>if</em> there are <em>other</em> rewards </strong></p><p><strong>that involve the players in the game. Perhaps there are ample </strong></p><p><strong>opportunities for character advancement or personality devel-</strong></p><p><strong>opment. The characters may have the opportunity to play a </strong></p><p><strong>decisive role in world affairs. These things are possible,<em><u> but </u></em></strong></p><p><em><u><strong>only a DM of extraordinary skill can overcome the drawbacks </strong></u></em></p><p><strong><u><em>he has created</em></u>.</strong></p><p> Fortunately, the problems of too little treasure are easily </p><p>fixed—simply introduce more treasure into the campaign. No </p><p>adjustments need to be made to the characters. The trea-</p><p>sures available in the game world can be increased without </p><p>the players even aware that the change has been effected.</p><p style="text-align: right">-115</p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>It's a problem once documented & the cherry on top is that the player facing text for 5e almost goes out of its way to downplay the very idea that the gm might exist for anything other than life support for <em>your</em> character & <em>your</em> story now that you as a player are free from actually needing anything that might lead to adventure.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I won't speak for 4e but the PCs absolutely had needs that they <em>required</em> from the gm in prior editions. Without those being met they would simply become ineffective... get killed... or both. Players knew or quickly learned that & filling those needs was a major goal for any PC. </p><p></p><p><strong> Back in 2e </strong>this was accomplished through a combination of a much higher lethality & quite a few monsters that required weapons with at least a certain amount of magic. This created a need for both magical gear & lots of consumables. For example 5e was not the first edition to have potions buyable either[ispoiler]<em>In addition, a potion requires a number of mundane ingredients. The basic cost of these ingredients ranges from 200 to 1,000 gp. The DM should decide this based on how common the potion is, its power, and the nature of the ingredients he has specified. A potion of dragon control is a rare item of great power and so should cost the full 1,000 gp. A potion of healing is a fairly necessary item, something the DM may want to be readily available to the characters. Therefore, it should be cheap, costing no more than 200 gp.<span style="font-size: 10px">(dmg119)</span></em>[/ispoiler] It's just the first edition that tried to do it in a way that was trivial at all levels and presented as a thing beyond the setting & GM's influence.</p><p></p><p><strong>Back in 3.x</strong> there was magic item churn baked right into the system's math where players were expected to have some combination of +n weapons +2/+4 attrib gear & likely +N armor at various breakpoint levels or like before they would become ineffective.. get killed... or both. With the addition of things like the need for weapons & sometimes armor that was silvered ghost touch aligned & so forth a particular monster (<em>or even adventure</em>) could jump tracks to a whole new cycle of equipment churn if players became too powerful off gear. If the GM felt it needed they could even make use of conflicting bonus types & conflicting body slots to provide equipment that offers sidegrades rather than upgrades</p><p></p><p><strong>Now in 5e</strong>. Potions are presented as being equally available as glass bottles an iron pot or a sheet of parchment & not that much more expensive. Magic items are totally optional with none of the math expecting them & if players get a magic weapon it's pretty much one & done for the campaign's life on that need unless they happen to find one objectively better than the one they didn't need to begin with. Filling those<em> needs</em> is no longer a thing that can be incentives linked to the plot. The PCs are so extremely durable that lethality is really not even a concern any more either.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8832177, member: 93670"] "just rework all of the math to force the system to make room for the needs 5e deemed badwrongfun"... [spoiler="is not an acceptable 'oops'"] Too Little Treasure In the case of a tight-fisted DM, the most obvious signs that the players are not having fun are frustration, cynicism, and low expectations. If the characters are not finding trea- sures commensurate to the risks they took, the players are going to wonder if all the effort of playing is really worth it. They become frustrated when, upon solving a devious trap, they discover a pittance, or nothing at all. Their cynicism shows as they start to make snide remarks about the level of rewards they have received or are likely to get for future efforts. Finally, they just begin to expect less and less from the DM’s campaign, until it reaches the point where they expect nothing and they go home! In such a campaign, the DM may have a fine time, creating detailed settings and elaborate adventures. But if he does not have the enthusiasm of his players, there isn’t much point in playing. [B]Such a campaign [I]can[/I] succeed [I]if[/I] there are [I]other[/I] rewards that involve the players in the game. Perhaps there are ample opportunities for character advancement or personality devel- opment. The characters may have the opportunity to play a decisive role in world affairs. These things are possible,[I][U] but [/U][/I][/B] [I][U][B]only a DM of extraordinary skill can overcome the drawbacks [/B][/U][/I] [B][U][I]he has created[/I][/U].[/B] Fortunately, the problems of too little treasure are easily fixed—simply introduce more treasure into the campaign. No adjustments need to be made to the characters. The trea- sures available in the game world can be increased without the players even aware that the change has been effected. [RIGHT]-115[/RIGHT] [/spoiler] It's a problem once documented & the cherry on top is that the player facing text for 5e almost goes out of its way to downplay the very idea that the gm might exist for anything other than life support for [I]your[/I] character & [I]your[/I] story now that you as a player are free from actually needing anything that might lead to adventure. I won't speak for 4e but the PCs absolutely had needs that they [I]required[/I] from the gm in prior editions. Without those being met they would simply become ineffective... get killed... or both. Players knew or quickly learned that & filling those needs was a major goal for any PC. [B] Back in 2e [/B]this was accomplished through a combination of a much higher lethality & quite a few monsters that required weapons with at least a certain amount of magic. This created a need for both magical gear & lots of consumables. For example 5e was not the first edition to have potions buyable either[ispoiler][I]In addition, a potion requires a number of mundane ingredients. The basic cost of these ingredients ranges from 200 to 1,000 gp. The DM should decide this based on how common the potion is, its power, and the nature of the ingredients he has specified. A potion of dragon control is a rare item of great power and so should cost the full 1,000 gp. A potion of healing is a fairly necessary item, something the DM may want to be readily available to the characters. Therefore, it should be cheap, costing no more than 200 gp.[SIZE=2](dmg119)[/SIZE][/I][/ispoiler] It's just the first edition that tried to do it in a way that was trivial at all levels and presented as a thing beyond the setting & GM's influence. [B]Back in 3.x[/B] there was magic item churn baked right into the system's math where players were expected to have some combination of +n weapons +2/+4 attrib gear & likely +N armor at various breakpoint levels or like before they would become ineffective.. get killed... or both. With the addition of things like the need for weapons & sometimes armor that was silvered ghost touch aligned & so forth a particular monster ([I]or even adventure[/I]) could jump tracks to a whole new cycle of equipment churn if players became too powerful off gear. If the GM felt it needed they could even make use of conflicting bonus types & conflicting body slots to provide equipment that offers sidegrades rather than upgrades [B]Now in 5e[/B]. Potions are presented as being equally available as glass bottles an iron pot or a sheet of parchment & not that much more expensive. Magic items are totally optional with none of the math expecting them & if players get a magic weapon it's pretty much one & done for the campaign's life on that need unless they happen to find one objectively better than the one they didn't need to begin with. Filling those[I] needs[/I] is no longer a thing that can be incentives linked to the plot. The PCs are so extremely durable that lethality is really not even a concern any more either. [/QUOTE]
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