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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 6810739" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>The first encounter was vs 4 Drow and 2 Giant Spiders. Before checking the math I would consider such an encounter to be "trivial", although the party "cheated" by expending a level 3 spell slot (Fireball).</p><p></p><p>But there's 600 XP there, or 120 XP per character. (The NPCs didn't have time to play a part). By the DMG, that's half of "easy", which makes sense. Okay so far.</p><p></p><p>The second, main, encounter was vs 4 Drow, 2 Elites, 1 Priestess, 1 Priest, 1 Yochlol. I would characterize the fight as very hard, bordering on deadly. I would say "DMG Deadly" only there was no real risk of the party actually losing, so I agree to its description to a degree.</p><p></p><p>There's 14050 XP in that fight. This time, all eight PCs and NPCs took full part, so that's 1756 XP a pop. Sure enough, the threshold for Deadly is 1100 XP.</p><p></p><p>So far, so good - but wait. </p><p></p><p>We're supposed to increase the "XP multiplier" for the number of monsters - there were five significant monsters in the main encounter. Also we're supposed to decrease the multiplier for a large party - there were eight heroes in the encounter. So we up the multiplier to x2 for monsters, and lower it back again to x1.5 for heroes.</p><p></p><p><strong>But now comes the real WHAAAA... moment.</strong></p><p></p><p>These numbers are not per character, but for the whole party! <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /></p><p></p><p>So, really, that initial encounter I put there as a challenge to take out silently (they failed miserably) is not double-easy at all. It's medium. WTF?</p><p></p><p>And the main encounter is supposed to be 200 + (13850 x 1.5) = 20975 XP, which is "off the chart deadly".</p><p></p><p>Actually it's not off the chart - it's just considered deadly for eight level 20 heroes, nearly double-deadly in fact...</p><p></p><p><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /><img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" /></p><p></p><p>This is so far removed from our experience I lack words. </p><p></p><p>Sure, you can play extreme hardball with your NPCs. But I somehow doubt that WotC is simultaneously assuming completely green players and very weak character builds with evil Dungeon Masters from Hell...!</p><p></p><p>So from now on when I casually say the CR system is fouled up beyond all recognition I now know what I'm talking about. </p><p></p><p>That's all. Have a good day.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 6810739, member: 12731"] The first encounter was vs 4 Drow and 2 Giant Spiders. Before checking the math I would consider such an encounter to be "trivial", although the party "cheated" by expending a level 3 spell slot (Fireball). But there's 600 XP there, or 120 XP per character. (The NPCs didn't have time to play a part). By the DMG, that's half of "easy", which makes sense. Okay so far. The second, main, encounter was vs 4 Drow, 2 Elites, 1 Priestess, 1 Priest, 1 Yochlol. I would characterize the fight as very hard, bordering on deadly. I would say "DMG Deadly" only there was no real risk of the party actually losing, so I agree to its description to a degree. There's 14050 XP in that fight. This time, all eight PCs and NPCs took full part, so that's 1756 XP a pop. Sure enough, the threshold for Deadly is 1100 XP. So far, so good - but wait. We're supposed to increase the "XP multiplier" for the number of monsters - there were five significant monsters in the main encounter. Also we're supposed to decrease the multiplier for a large party - there were eight heroes in the encounter. So we up the multiplier to x2 for monsters, and lower it back again to x1.5 for heroes. [B]But now comes the real WHAAAA... moment.[/B] These numbers are not per character, but for the whole party! :eek::eek::eek: So, really, that initial encounter I put there as a challenge to take out silently (they failed miserably) is not double-easy at all. It's medium. WTF? And the main encounter is supposed to be 200 + (13850 x 1.5) = 20975 XP, which is "off the chart deadly". Actually it's not off the chart - it's just considered deadly for eight level 20 heroes, nearly double-deadly in fact... :confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: This is so far removed from our experience I lack words. Sure, you can play extreme hardball with your NPCs. But I somehow doubt that WotC is simultaneously assuming completely green players and very weak character builds with evil Dungeon Masters from Hell...! So from now on when I casually say the CR system is fouled up beyond all recognition I now know what I'm talking about. That's all. Have a good day. [/QUOTE]
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