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<blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6818204" data-attributes="member: 5834"><p>The way the game works none of that matters. Not sure why you believe that to be the case.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't need to rebalance the classes. Why would you think I would need to?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. 5E combat does not work as you think it works. Action economy does not allow a caster to dominate or a paladin. The paladin's defensive abilities are far more useful than their offense and that is what makes them OP. Their offense is average even with nova bursts. A high level fighter with action surge far exceeds a paladin's non-crit damage and their average damage once they get three attacks often matches paladin damage while smiting.</p><p></p><p>Eldritch Knight Archer Fighters are amongst the very best damage dealers in the game whether nova or round to round damage. As are <em>eldritch blasting</em> warlocks. The only time arcane casters shine with spells is when is AoE damage and 9th level spells, which they get one of per day. Otherwise, they are far better in support roles, especially against creatures with Legendary Resistance. </p><p></p><p>The monk is a weak damage dealer and it won't change regardless of the adventuring day. The fighter and warlock are far, far, far from weak, though not versatile like arcane casters. No one plays a barbarian and people tend to avoid melee because melee is easy to defeat. The paladin is desirable more because of the powerful defensive abilities and versatility of abilities, not their damage. Paladins are often left in the cold dealing with mobility issues using their abilities to defend rather than attack. Ranged weapon use and <em>eldritch blast</em> is king in 5E.</p><p></p><p>So there is no need to rebalance classes. If you have played the game to high level, you would understand how painful it is to be a caster when it comes to killing creatures, especially creatures with Legendary Resistance when combats are short and fast given the high damage output both ways.</p><p></p><p>5E works a certain way. The adventuring day with 6 to 8 encounters is a waste of time for well played, optimized parties. I would not be surprised if it was too easy for even average players playing average characters. It's a fast and furious game with no time for excessive novaing by spellcasters. In previous editions casters were overpowered due to the ability to stack spells and that does not work in 5E. So novaing really isn't possible. Even a 9th level slot <em>fireball</em> is 15d6 damage or an average of 53 points. A <em>meteor swarm</em> is 140 points, about two rounds of damage for an archer or great weapon user fighter or smiting paladin going all out. Even an <em>eldritch blast</em> warlock using <em>hex</em> is averaging 13 damage per hit and up to 52 per round. So he's reaching 9th level spell damage with three round of cantrip use. If he is a Sorlock, his nova is even higher using a bonus action to use double cantrips in a round. A sorlock using Quicken Spell with <em>eldritch blast</em> does a potential 208 damage in two rounds using a cantrip and four sorcery points which he can renew with short rests while a wizard using a 9th level does a potential 140 (though it is AoE damage if fighting multiple creatures).</p><p></p><p>Damage mechanics and spell capability work a certain way in 5E. 5E put very powerful limits on casters. Damage is not something full casters do well even at high level. All these spell slots that appear to be a problem can still only be cast once per round and they don't stack due to concentration, so you can't stack a bunch of buffs or summons like the casters of older editions.</p><p></p><p>I'll end this by saying you need to study the 5E math more than you have or get more experience playing high level campaigns. Casters are not king no matter how you design encounters. They have too many things to counter their capabilities from concentration to Legendary Resistance to general immunity or resistance to a lot of their damage types. A fighter does more damage than a caster save when doing AoE damage or using one true 9th level spell.</p><p></p><p>Your post is extremely odd. It would take forever to explain why it's wrong. The most popular classes in my campaigns are bards, warlocks (usually a multiclass), paladins, fighters, rangers, and some kind of cleric for buffing and healing. Those are the classes that see the most play. Arcane casters aren't as popular as they once were because 5E has so many limitations on them that make them weak in the strongest encounters that very few people want to play them to high level. It is absolutely no fun to use your single 8th or 9th level spell slot against a creature that automatically saves against it, while the paladin, fighter, or ranger are wailing away for truck tons damage the creature can't resist.</p><p></p><p>I'm quite fine doing things as I do them. I've never had problems making the game fun. I've never followed the guidelines for encounter building in any gaming system. If your math skills are good, you'll never have any problems designing encounters. It all comes down to capacity to do damage and capacity to take damage. Once you work that math out, you can get encounters where you want them to be on an encounter by encounter basis. There is zero need to rebalance classes. Arcane casters are not anywhere near as problematic as previous editions. 3E was a real problem balancing fights for casters. Fighters and warlocks are not weak. They have some very simple, but potent abilities. The fighters main problem is weak saves against some very dangerous abilities. The paladin protection aura is by and far the best ability a paladin has and it is in fact better than just about any other ability in the game. Protection aura saves lives big time. That's why people love paladins. That's why they're popular. Unless you intend to hand out protection aura to other classes, the paladin will remain popular in every type of campaign.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celtavian, post: 6818204, member: 5834"] The way the game works none of that matters. Not sure why you believe that to be the case. I don't need to rebalance the classes. Why would you think I would need to? No. 5E combat does not work as you think it works. Action economy does not allow a caster to dominate or a paladin. The paladin's defensive abilities are far more useful than their offense and that is what makes them OP. Their offense is average even with nova bursts. A high level fighter with action surge far exceeds a paladin's non-crit damage and their average damage once they get three attacks often matches paladin damage while smiting. Eldritch Knight Archer Fighters are amongst the very best damage dealers in the game whether nova or round to round damage. As are [I]eldritch blasting[/I] warlocks. The only time arcane casters shine with spells is when is AoE damage and 9th level spells, which they get one of per day. Otherwise, they are far better in support roles, especially against creatures with Legendary Resistance. The monk is a weak damage dealer and it won't change regardless of the adventuring day. The fighter and warlock are far, far, far from weak, though not versatile like arcane casters. No one plays a barbarian and people tend to avoid melee because melee is easy to defeat. The paladin is desirable more because of the powerful defensive abilities and versatility of abilities, not their damage. Paladins are often left in the cold dealing with mobility issues using their abilities to defend rather than attack. Ranged weapon use and [I]eldritch blast[/I] is king in 5E. So there is no need to rebalance classes. If you have played the game to high level, you would understand how painful it is to be a caster when it comes to killing creatures, especially creatures with Legendary Resistance when combats are short and fast given the high damage output both ways. 5E works a certain way. The adventuring day with 6 to 8 encounters is a waste of time for well played, optimized parties. I would not be surprised if it was too easy for even average players playing average characters. It's a fast and furious game with no time for excessive novaing by spellcasters. In previous editions casters were overpowered due to the ability to stack spells and that does not work in 5E. So novaing really isn't possible. Even a 9th level slot [I]fireball[/I] is 15d6 damage or an average of 53 points. A [I]meteor swarm[/I] is 140 points, about two rounds of damage for an archer or great weapon user fighter or smiting paladin going all out. Even an [I]eldritch blast[/I] warlock using [I]hex[/I] is averaging 13 damage per hit and up to 52 per round. So he's reaching 9th level spell damage with three round of cantrip use. If he is a Sorlock, his nova is even higher using a bonus action to use double cantrips in a round. A sorlock using Quicken Spell with [I]eldritch blast[/I] does a potential 208 damage in two rounds using a cantrip and four sorcery points which he can renew with short rests while a wizard using a 9th level does a potential 140 (though it is AoE damage if fighting multiple creatures). Damage mechanics and spell capability work a certain way in 5E. 5E put very powerful limits on casters. Damage is not something full casters do well even at high level. All these spell slots that appear to be a problem can still only be cast once per round and they don't stack due to concentration, so you can't stack a bunch of buffs or summons like the casters of older editions. I'll end this by saying you need to study the 5E math more than you have or get more experience playing high level campaigns. Casters are not king no matter how you design encounters. They have too many things to counter their capabilities from concentration to Legendary Resistance to general immunity or resistance to a lot of their damage types. A fighter does more damage than a caster save when doing AoE damage or using one true 9th level spell. Your post is extremely odd. It would take forever to explain why it's wrong. The most popular classes in my campaigns are bards, warlocks (usually a multiclass), paladins, fighters, rangers, and some kind of cleric for buffing and healing. Those are the classes that see the most play. Arcane casters aren't as popular as they once were because 5E has so many limitations on them that make them weak in the strongest encounters that very few people want to play them to high level. It is absolutely no fun to use your single 8th or 9th level spell slot against a creature that automatically saves against it, while the paladin, fighter, or ranger are wailing away for truck tons damage the creature can't resist. I'm quite fine doing things as I do them. I've never had problems making the game fun. I've never followed the guidelines for encounter building in any gaming system. If your math skills are good, you'll never have any problems designing encounters. It all comes down to capacity to do damage and capacity to take damage. Once you work that math out, you can get encounters where you want them to be on an encounter by encounter basis. There is zero need to rebalance classes. Arcane casters are not anywhere near as problematic as previous editions. 3E was a real problem balancing fights for casters. Fighters and warlocks are not weak. They have some very simple, but potent abilities. The fighters main problem is weak saves against some very dangerous abilities. The paladin protection aura is by and far the best ability a paladin has and it is in fact better than just about any other ability in the game. Protection aura saves lives big time. That's why people love paladins. That's why they're popular. Unless you intend to hand out protection aura to other classes, the paladin will remain popular in every type of campaign. [/QUOTE]
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