Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5928919" data-attributes="member: 42582">At low levels, due to the lack of under-level opponents I ran plenty of encounters with over-level opponents.Now, at mid-paragon, I run a lot of level +3, level +4 and level +5 encounters, but mostly with NPCs/monsters at levels no higher than 1 or 2 above the PCs, and many opponents. And using a lot of waves, sections, mobility etc - all the stuff that I find 4e supports so nicely!As an example, the last combat I ran was for 3 level 16 PCs and was a level 19 (7600 XP) encounter - 2 15th level artillery (gargoyles), a 15th level skirmisher swarm (dire rats), and a 13th level solo (a troll). (The context: the PCs had been successful in a lawsuit to get the wererats evicted from the building, but the wererats didn't take all their hangers on with them when they left.)Another recent combat for 5 PCs at 15th level involved 4 17th level gargantuan soldier swarms (hobgoblin phalanxes), 30 or 40 minions of around 14th level (hobgoblin archers and Bane-ite rabble), and a 15th level skirmisher (angel of battle). The total XP value was 17600 - 21st level for 5 PCs. The PCs went into the encounter with only a handful of dailies left, and limited healing surges, and pulled through - though there was the first PC death since 3rd level, as the wizard made a bad call and used a ranged rather than a close attack, taking an oppy and then, after that knocked him unconscious, got caught in the angel of battle's storm of blades.So I agree with both of you, that 4e can be used to run mechanically challenging fights, and that player skill rather than luck of the dice becomes an important factor.But for me, at least, the goal of those hard fights isn't so much to see whether or not the players "win" - the one time they did TPK, at 3rd level, I consulted with the players to see who wanted to change characters and who not, and then set up an appropriate capture scenario as the starting point for the next session - but to generate the appropriate experience and frame the ingame situation with appropriate gravity.In the first of the fights I mentioned, the players knew it was serious when, just as they're thinking "What's going on with these gargoyles and that swarm of dire rats", a troll climbs out of the cellar and tries to grab the wizard/invoker. He used his daily interrupt that lets him take a standard action, and teleported away - straight away a certain sense of pressure and "they're not just mucking around" is created.Likewise in the other fight. The PCs encountered the first two phalanxes moving down a ravine, and it was only when they came out of it into more open ground that they saw there were two more phalanxes moving up, plus a handful of Bane-ites summoning an angel. At which point the players start looking a bit anxious, start discussing strategy like it really matters, and look over their character sheets again to see what combos they might have missed first time around.As I said, it's not about competing. It's about feeling the pressure. A type of immersion, I guess.</blockquote>

Verification