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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
[Combat] Manoeuvres
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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 5957456" data-attributes="member: 710"><p>I would not make maneuers hinge on critical hits. But I could see them being dependent on having advantage. </p><p></p><p>If you have advantage, you can forego rolling two dice and instead make a normal attack plus make a maneuver. Either that maneuver is automatic or requires a contest (But I am not a big fan of contest, they are too random IMO. But it seems I have no one on WotC championing my cause right now <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /> ). </p><p></p><p>Maybe some maneuvers everyone can do, but several only the Fighter can use.</p><p></p><p>Basic Maneuvers could be stuff like: </p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Bullrush: Move target with you, double movement cost.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Grab: Target cannot move away from you unless it bullrushes you or escapes the grab.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Outmaneuver: You can move through one of the enemies squares after the attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Feint: Target grants Advantage for your next action.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Parry: You can make an opposed attack roll against the next attack by the target. If you succeed, the attack misses.</li> </ul><p>These are intentionally rather "weak" maneuvers. 3E pretended Bullrush and Trip were identical in worth,but they really weren't. The penalties for being prone were much worse usually than Bullrush.</p><p></p><p></p><p>People can also choose to use a basic maneuver instead of a normal attack.</p><p></p><p>Advanced Maneuvers could be stuff like: </p><p></p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Knockdown: Target drops prone</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Disarm: Target drops item or weapon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sunder: Target's weapon/item also takes damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Pin: Grabbed target cannot take any action except to escape the pin, afterwards it is still grabbed.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Feint and Riposte: Like Feint, but you can make an attack as a reaction if the target misses with its next attack. If it hits, you can still make an attack as reaction, but lose your next action.</li> </ul><p>Even more powerful maneuvers could be</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Deadly Strike: If target's hit point are less than twice the fighter's level after the attack, target dies, otherwise it takes extra damage equal to the fighter's level.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Stunning Blow: Target must make a constitution save at start of its turn or cannot act. If it saves, it still has disadvantage for the action and can only move at half speed.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Live Cover: As Grab, but the next time you are attacked by someone other than the target, yu direct the attack against the target instead.</li> </ul><p>The advanced maneuvers are Fighter only by default. Some other classes or feats may give access to a few maneuvers as well. A Monk class could probably use Stunning Blow or Knockdown, and Assassins could use something like Deadly Strike.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The important thing for me is that the Fighter must need a degree of control on when he can use the maneuver, and it should be clearly benefitial. The opportunity cost of maneuver or attack is often too high. </p><p>Also, I think it's good if maneuvers require a setup, e.g. you must do some work to fulfill a pre-condition before you can even use maneuvers. Currently, the combat system only gives us advantage, which is not very varied, but it's a good start. A "tactics" module may start turning advantage into several subcategories, say "flanking advantage" or "surprise advantage" or "prone advantage" or something like that and specify maneuvers for each.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 5957456, member: 710"] I would not make maneuers hinge on critical hits. But I could see them being dependent on having advantage. If you have advantage, you can forego rolling two dice and instead make a normal attack plus make a maneuver. Either that maneuver is automatic or requires a contest (But I am not a big fan of contest, they are too random IMO. But it seems I have no one on WotC championing my cause right now :p ). Maybe some maneuvers everyone can do, but several only the Fighter can use. Basic Maneuvers could be stuff like: [LIST] [*]Bullrush: Move target with you, double movement cost. [*]Grab: Target cannot move away from you unless it bullrushes you or escapes the grab. [*]Outmaneuver: You can move through one of the enemies squares after the attack. [*]Feint: Target grants Advantage for your next action. [*]Parry: You can make an opposed attack roll against the next attack by the target. If you succeed, the attack misses. [/LIST] These are intentionally rather "weak" maneuvers. 3E pretended Bullrush and Trip were identical in worth,but they really weren't. The penalties for being prone were much worse usually than Bullrush. People can also choose to use a basic maneuver instead of a normal attack. Advanced Maneuvers could be stuff like: [LIST] [*]Knockdown: Target drops prone [*]Disarm: Target drops item or weapon [*]Sunder: Target's weapon/item also takes damage [*]Pin: Grabbed target cannot take any action except to escape the pin, afterwards it is still grabbed. [*]Feint and Riposte: Like Feint, but you can make an attack as a reaction if the target misses with its next attack. If it hits, you can still make an attack as reaction, but lose your next action. [/LIST] Even more powerful maneuvers could be [LIST] [*]Deadly Strike: If target's hit point are less than twice the fighter's level after the attack, target dies, otherwise it takes extra damage equal to the fighter's level. [*]Stunning Blow: Target must make a constitution save at start of its turn or cannot act. If it saves, it still has disadvantage for the action and can only move at half speed. [*]Live Cover: As Grab, but the next time you are attacked by someone other than the target, yu direct the attack against the target instead. [/LIST] The advanced maneuvers are Fighter only by default. Some other classes or feats may give access to a few maneuvers as well. A Monk class could probably use Stunning Blow or Knockdown, and Assassins could use something like Deadly Strike. The important thing for me is that the Fighter must need a degree of control on when he can use the maneuver, and it should be clearly benefitial. The opportunity cost of maneuver or attack is often too high. Also, I think it's good if maneuvers require a setup, e.g. you must do some work to fulfill a pre-condition before you can even use maneuvers. Currently, the combat system only gives us advantage, which is not very varied, but it's a good start. A "tactics" module may start turning advantage into several subcategories, say "flanking advantage" or "surprise advantage" or "prone advantage" or something like that and specify maneuvers for each. [/QUOTE]
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