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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mach1.9pants" data-source="post: 4317591" data-attributes="member: 55946">OK, so one of the stated design aims of 4E is to disconnect combat ability from non-combat or outside of combat abilities. I don' think that has been achieved.PC's have (apart from using attack powers in clever ways) three main types of non-combat abilities. First, and foremost, is their trained skills. Second are utility powers, some of them anyway. The third part of this is rituals.But each class is not equal in this, especially the most important part. Rogues get 6 trained skills, down to fighters with 3. Now I realise that skills have a lot of combat uses but that does not invalidate the problem. Outside of combat a rogue is still the most useful PC, overall. The fighter can choose some useful non-combat skills but his range of training is not the same. To be as good as a rogue he must give up some of his combat power and use his feats. So what is the fighter getting in return for this lack of utility? His powers are not better than the Rogue (and definitely not the 5 skill ranger). The only thing he 'beats' the rogue on is weapon and armour proficiencies and hit points. And with the way the rogue is designed the lack of wep and armour proficiencies is hardly a real hindrance. So, as with 3E, we have non-combat balanced with combat power; a fighter's hitpoints and surges versus a rogue's trained skills. And considering a fighter's role he needs these extra HP so the balance of HP for skills is very much in the rogue's favour.The third part of the non-combat abilities is rituals and here we we the same thing. The wizard looses out BIG style on combat. It is not his job to get into the thick of things but he has no armour or wep proficiencies to speak of and his HP/surges suck. What does he get in return? A bit of flexibility (strategically, so to be of real use he must know his enemy before combat to pick the better dailies/utilities for that foe) and rituals...a non-combat power. Those rituals are really nice and save the wizard a bit of money and a feat (whooppee) but the pay back is a real lack of combat staying power. IMO one cannot argue that a wizards spells and other combat power makes up for their lack on HP, wep and armour proficiencies.A wizards lack of combat toughness should be balanced with more powerful ranged spells; not non-combat rituals. A rogue's extra skills should have some non-combat balance, but basically a rogue gets them for free! It was something I was really looking forward for 4E ( since Races & Classes) and it is my biggest disappointment. Don't get me wrong the balance is much better than 3E and I am sticking with 4E. But why didn't they go the whole way, everybody with equal skill points, any non-combat power (wizards rituals) balanced with something else non-combat (maybe less skills for the wizard in return, or hard-wired skill choice must take Arcana, History and one of dungeoneering/religion/nature as 3 of his 6 skills?).It seems to me that in the same way that a ranger is described as the ultimate tracker in is class fluff (when they are no better than anyone else) this is a hangover from previous editions. Wizards always had poor armour and hit points, so lets do it in 4E; forgetting that in previous editions they were the most powerful in and out of combat at higher levels, by a mile...unlike in this edition where the ranger is damage king. Fighters have always have low skill points, we'll give them 3 (why?); rogues have always been skilful so lets give them SIX 9and rangers 5) when in 4E rogues are not a rogue at all but an in-combat assassin; a lurking death dealer. Not a cat burgler at all.So IMC (after I have finished the KotSF pre-gens and got the hang of 4E) house rules will be PROBABLY be coming in to balance this problem of balance. Everybody will get 5 or 6 trained skills. A wizards lack of armour and wep will be balanced by an increase in the damage dealing properties of their spells (+1 per tier should do it). Etc.....So am I talking rubbish and not seeing the balance; or am I right and there was not enough sacred hamburger produced....like having 4 defences: fortitude, Reflex, Will and Armour Class; why not just armour?</blockquote>

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