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<blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 4486732" data-attributes="member: 1003">That's a summary of course, not a quote of anyone in particular. But I was thinking about this, and thinking about my AD&amp;D days.&nbsp; Back in the 1990s I was mostly playing AD&amp;D 2E, but also some Magic: The Gathering and the occasional board game.&nbsp; If some time-traveler from ~2008 had gone back to 1995 and showed me a pic of a fully accessorized 4E group, with their power cards, Dungeon Tiles and D&amp;D Miniatures, I think I would have assumed that said group was playing Magic: The Board Game. I'd be curious why one player got to hide his cards behind a screen.Now, this post is not a bash on 4E or WotC (really!), because I'm now thinking my AD&amp;D self would say: &quot;Wow, that sure would save me a lot of time and headaches. No more arguing over who got hit by the Lightning Bolt reflection; no more describing the contours of the room for a third time, etc.&quot;Further, we've obviously had (square and hex) maps published by TSR since the very beginning, and TSR obviously assumed that the DM would be relying on those maps as the arbiters of what a room/cave/kingdom looked like (spatially). &quot;You are standing in a 10x15 room.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;It's 20 miles to the Keep.&quot; etc.So, if D&amp;D has always assumed a 3D space, and there were no rules for determining where your PC is standing in that space relative to NPCs, walls, traps, etc., why did TSR never provide the PCs with a concrete way of determining where they were inside that 3D space?&nbsp; Maps were for DMs and combat was narrative. For all &quot;close calls&quot; it was pure DM fiat whether they were within the blast of the dragon's breath weapon or just outside it. I don't think WotC changed D&amp;D nearly as much as it just recognized a shortcoming that had existed for 25 years.I think the battlemat has been a huge benefit to PCs (they can control where they're standing with specificity) and a time saver for everyone (see above). Moreover, I think a battlemat would provide these benefits to OD&amp;D, RC D&amp;D, and AD&amp;D as well. I made a lot of judgment calls in my RC &amp; AD&amp;D DMing days that were &quot;beyond review&quot; as far as the players were concerned, and while that's fine for world-design stuff, I think players should exercise full control over where their PC is standing. I recall many statements similar to &quot;I'd never have done that if I'd known&quot; or &quot;Korgoth wouldn't have been standing that close.&quot; Lots of retconning (or overrides) would have been avoided with a battlemat.So here's my question and the topic for discussion: Is there anyone who disagrees with the above statement that can show how previous editions would allow a PC to &quot;prove&quot; to the DM that he was not standing in a certain place, but rather a few feet to the left?&nbsp; If the answer is &quot;No, but I prefer it that way&quot;, why is that?--------Sub-topic #2 is: What games do you know which have abstract positioning rules that give PCs control over their position but don't require a battlemat? Can you briefly describe how that works?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Irda Ranger, post: 4486732, member: 1003"] That's a summary of course, not a quote of anyone in particular. But I was thinking about this, and thinking about my AD&D days. Back in the 1990s I was mostly playing AD&D 2E, but also some Magic: The Gathering and the occasional board game. If some time-traveler from ~2008 had gone back to 1995 and showed me a pic of a fully accessorized 4E group, with their power cards, Dungeon Tiles and D&D Miniatures, I think I would have assumed that said group was playing [I]Magic: The Board Game[/I]. I'd be curious why one player got to hide his cards behind a screen. Now, this post is not a bash on 4E or WotC (really!), because I'm now thinking my AD&D self would say: "Wow, that sure would save me a lot of time and headaches. No more arguing over who got hit by the Lightning Bolt reflection; no more describing the contours of the room for a third time, etc." Further, we've obviously had (square and hex) maps published by TSR since the very beginning, and TSR obviously assumed that the DM would be relying on those maps as the arbiters of what a room/cave/kingdom looked like (spatially). "You are standing in a 10x15 room." "It's 20 miles to the Keep." etc. So, if D&D has always assumed a 3D space, and there were no rules for determining where your PC is standing in that space relative to NPCs, walls, traps, etc., why did TSR never provide the PCs with a concrete way of determining where they were inside that 3D space? Maps were for DMs and combat was narrative. For all "close calls" it was pure DM fiat whether they were within the blast of the dragon's breath weapon or just outside it. I don't think WotC changed D&D nearly as much as it just recognized a shortcoming that had existed for 25 years. I think the battlemat has been a huge benefit to PCs (they can control where they're standing with specificity) and a time saver for everyone (see above). Moreover, I think a battlemat would provide these benefits to OD&D, RC D&D, and AD&D as well. I made a lot of judgment calls in my RC & AD&D DMing days that were "beyond review" as far as the players were concerned, and while that's fine for world-design stuff, I think players should exercise full control over where their PC is standing. I recall many statements similar to "I'd never have done that if I'd known" or "Korgoth wouldn't have been standing that close." Lots of retconning (or overrides) would have been avoided with a battlemat. So here's my question and the topic for discussion: Is there anyone who disagrees with the above statement that can show how previous editions would allow a PC to "prove" to the DM that he was not standing in a certain place, but rather a few feet to the left? If the answer is "No, but I prefer it that way", why is that? -------- Sub-topic #2 is: What games do you know which have abstract positioning rules that give PCs control over their position but don't require a battlemat? Can you briefly describe how that works? [/QUOTE]

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