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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kerrick" data-source="post: 4784907" data-attributes="member: 4722">I know I tried adding BAB originally (PF's CMB uses it), and I dropped it for some reason. I just don't remember why. I think it was because of feedback on the Paizo forums - I'll have to check. (Funnily enough, the original example I used for multiple grapplers includes BABs in the formulae. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" />) Thinking about it, though, someone with a lot of expertise (high BAB) should be able to use that to make up for a lack of Strength and/or a serious size mismatch, though he wouldn't be as effective as he could be fighting someone his own size (see below). Or I could simply add bonuses for Improved Grapple and Legendary Wrestler (yes, I'm adding that feat - I think it will be useful).Yes they should, and that's what I suggested. So we're on the same page. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Yeah... Edit: I'm an idiot. I was going over the feats for revision, and I realized that the base "offensive fighting" is already 2:1, and PA would increase it to 1:1 and grant the x2 bonus - there's no need for an Imp. PA feat. Oops.Grapple RulesI was running this through my head at work yesterday, and a little last night, and I think we've got enough to refine the system into a workable ruleset. I'm sure there are still a few kinks to work out.[sblock]  A character or creature can attempt to grapple a foe as an attack action, hindering its combat options. If the attacker does not have Improved Unarmed Combat feat, improved grab, or a similar ability, making a grapple attempt against an armed foe incurs a -4 penalty.  In order to make a grapple attempt, the attacker must make a touch attack against the target. If it hits, he can make a grapple check as a free action (1d20 + BAB + size modifier + Str modifier) vs. DC 10 + defender's BAB + defender's size modifier + defender's Str modifier. Attempting to grapple without at least one free hand imposes a -2 penalty on the check; the Improved Unarmed Combat feat grants a +2 bonus.  If the grapple check succeeds, the attacker has grabbed its opponent. It can choose each round to either deal damage as normal or perform a maneuver listed below as a standard action. The target's movement is restricted as noted below under Hold, but it otherwise has use of all of its limbs. It cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 15 Concentration check.  Hold: The attacker can grab its target with both hands, restricting its movement. Held creatures may suffer a penalty to AC, Reflex saves, Dex-related checks, and have more or less mobility depending on their size relative to the attacker's:[code]Size Ratio         Penalty MoveThree sizes smaller     -6     0 ft.Two sizes smaller     -4     0 ft.One size smaller     -2     Combat strideSame/one size larger     -1     Half moveTwo sizes larger     +0     Full move (no run)Three sizes larger     +0     Unrestricted[/code]  These values are reversed for the attacker. For example, a human (Medium) holding a cat (Tiny) would suffer no penalty and could make a full move, but he can't run; the cat, on the other hand, suffers a -4 penalty and can't move at all.  The defender can only take actions that require one free hand. For example, it could make an attack with a light weapon or cast a spell, but could not attack with a two-handed weapon. The defender cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 20 Concentration check.   Push/Pull: The attacker can attempt to move the target in a direction of his choosing. This requires an opposed check: 1d20 + Str modifier + size modifier for attack and target; if the target is held, the attacker gains an additional +2 bonus. If the attacker succeeds, it moves the target a distance equal to its combat stride in a direction of its choosing; it can move with the target, or let it go.  Trip: The attacker can make a trip attack (see Trip, below). The attacker has a +2 bonus (which stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Finesse) if the target is held. If it succeeds, the target is knocked prone, and the attacker can make an immediate follow-up attack.   An attacker with the Improved Grapple feat can perform any of the above actions, or one of the following:  Pin: In order to attempt a pin, the target must be prone. On a successful grapple check, the attacker has pinned the target; the defender can take no actions except attempting to break the grapple (if suffers a -4 penalty), or actions that require only speech or thought (such as casting a spell with only verbal components). The defender cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 30 Concentration check. The attacker automatically deals normal damage each round. An attacker cannot pin a creature that is larger than he is, though two or more attackers of the same size can pin a larger creature (see Multiple Grapplers, below).  As with Hold, an attacker that is pinning someone may have more or less restricted movement. Use the table above to determine this.  Throw: In order to attempt a throw, the target must be held and cannot be prone. An attacker cannot throw a target that is larger than it is. On a successful grapple check, the attacker has thrown the target; it moves up to 5 feet per two size categories of difference in a direction of the attacker's choosing. If the target remains in the attacker's space, the attacker can retain a hold on it. The target takes 1d6 points of damage (unless it falls a greater distance) and is prone. For example, a human throwing a cat (two sizes smaller) can toss it up to 5 feet away in any direction, or throw it to the ground in his own space.  The defender can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making an opposed grapple check or Acrobatics check vs. the attacker's grapple check for that round. If the defender's check succeeds, he breaks the grapple and can act normally.  Joining a Grapple: If a character or creature is already involved in a grapple, another attacker can make a grapple check as above, except that he doesn't suffer a penalty for the target being armed, and his grab check automatically succeeds. He must still make a successful grapple check to perform any further maneuvers.  If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, the defender must pick one against whom to make the grapple check.  Multiple Grapplers: Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Each two creatures of a given size equal one creature of one size larger.  For example, two kobolds (Small) are equivalent to one human (Medium). Thus, a human held by two kobolds has his movement restricted to a half move. If he were being grappled by four kobolds, they would be treated as a Large creature, restricting his movement to a single combat stride and imposing a -2 penalty to his checks.  When grappling with multiple opponents, a defender must designate one attacker as its target; all grapple checks are made against that target. All attackers who are on the same side (that is, attempting to grapple the same target) use one roll for their grapple check – they use the largest size and Strength modifiers for any member of the group.  For example: Four kobolds (Str 9) are grappling a human fighter with 16 Strength. Since the kobolds are Small, four of them equal one Large creature; they all have the same Strength modifier (-1). Thus, their check is 1d20 + 2 -1 vs. DC 10 + 3, or 1d20 + 3 vs. DC 17.[/sblock]</blockquote>

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