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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 307668" data-attributes="member: 5889">Hey, me and karinsdad actually agreed!!! Sadly, it just couldn't last<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Maybe our problem here is we have a different view of what making a reflex save against a fireball is? For me, its obvious that a reflex save doesn't mean avoiding the attack. If I'm caught in the center of a fireball, I'm not going to be able to get out of the blast radius, it just ain't going to happen (although you could do it wiht a readied action<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />What I think of, is basically the person is using whatever he's got around him (that can actually do any good) to avoid that attack as much as possible. Most of the time, its basically the person's ability to duck, curl in a ball, or what ever to have as little of his body as possible be hit with the attack.However, with cover, there's a possibility that you can duck near a solid wall (something that actually blocks the fireball) and have even a better chance to avoid a lot of the fireball (ie. the better reflex save). If your really close to wall at the time the spells cast (9/10 cover), then you can get your body behind the wall and actually take no damage (improved evasion).However, since a person doesn't impede or block the fireball in any way, its like he's not even there. Sure you could duck behind him, but the fireball will simply make its way, and you fry just like normal.And as for karinsdad's comment about a wall being no different than a line of bodies with armor, here's the analogy I use.Say you have a river heading towards a solid wall. If I stand behind that wall, I will get hit by some water, but most of it will go around me. However, if that wall had a hole bunch of holes in it (just like a line of people would be), then the water will shoot through the holes and I get soaked.I completely agree with everyone who's using pg. 133, I do not dispute that cover provides a bonus to reflex saves. But with the other rules and diagrams I've pointed out, it doesn't seem like the whole story.BTW, for everyone who does agree with karinsdad's opinion, page 133 of the ph says: "If the covering creature has a dexterity bonus to AC or a dodge bonus, and this bonus keeps the covering creature from behing hit, then original target is hit instead. The covering creature has dodged out of the way and didn't provide cover at all."So I would say that if you are going to allow people as cover, only do so if they fail their saves.</blockquote>

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