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Message: <blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 6582089" data-attributes="member: 92511">i like a lot of this line of thinking and it gets me heading in the design-direction that, perhaps, the issue isn't that the Sorcerer has its own spell list or that it "needs" to have access to "moar" Wizard spells or  that combining the Sorcerer and Wizard lists is the way to go...But, just maybe, the key to making [crtain] sorcerer fans happy is to eliminate a Sorcerer spell list entirely. Make the sorcerer class the "Powers" class. Make them, as they already are, the Metamagic Class. No spell list required.Set up some kind of mechanics -not "spell points", per se, but something along those lines or maybe something borrowing from Supers RPGs and the development of innate superpowers - that let's the PC TRY to do different things with their magic. As they gain levels, they gain more "stunts", their energy blasts can do more damage  or be more specialized/specific/exacting.Like...at least in this [very rough] pencil sketch in m head at the moment:Class: SorcererSubclasses: Sorcerous Origin -whatever the frig you want/however you want to flavor it: Ancestry, Wild Magic, Psychic Powers, Dragons, Elementals/Genies, Shadow, Light, OD'ed on magic mushroom spores, "everybody [or only certain folks] in the world is magic", whatever...At 1st level: Arcane Sense: Innate Detect Magic. Select Two "Effects" [each defined/limited to the effects comparable to cantrip or 1st level spells]:Alter Perceptions [charm]Attacking Blast [comparable cantrip/1st damage to multiple targets: burning hands, icing hands, sleep, color spray, however you want to envision it]Attacking Bolt [comparable 1st level damage to single target, the "damage type" is really just a matter of flavor. So if you want "fire, ice, psychic, ripping stones out of the ground that fly at the targets, etc... is really up to the player & DM to decide/agree upon.]Control Environment [make a fog cloud, change the temperature, shape stone, plants, maybe control animals, etc...] Defensive Shield [could be an actual forcefield/Shield spell or model Protection from Evil or create blocks of rock to shoot up out of the ground or even "cloaking"/blending/invisibility, whatever...Something that limits damage or negates attacks.] Ensnare [entangle with vegetation, lock feet in stone, encase in ice, the Crimson Bands of Citorrak, wutevuh...]Illusion [personal, visual, audial, environmental, etc...]Mind Control [empathy or detect thoughts up to full on telepathy and domination]Enhanced Movement [limited to max speed of 10' per level, however the mode is flavored: hover 3" off the ground, full levitation or flight, ride waves of earth or ice chutes, etc...]...etc...At 3rd level: Arcane Overextension [or some better name, obviously]: however that "push their boundaries" flavor gets mechanically defined.Select Two Metamagics. You gain 1 additional Metamagic "stunt" every other level thereafter [5th, 7th, etc...]At 6th level: Arcane Syphon: absorbing/syphoning off magical effects, can only "dispel/suspend" magic of a level equal to their own, but then need to rechannel the spell levels into an Effect or sustain damage.Select another Effect that you have realized/figured out how to expand your powers.At 14th & 18th level: Select 1 additional Effect at each + other stuff that somehow increases their existing powers.</blockquote>

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