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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6400579" data-attributes="member: 27160">If you think that any method of causing opponents to move around without using brute force to do it is &quot;mind control&quot; I have a recommendation: never get involved in any sort of combat, battle, physical sport or even game of &quot;tag&quot; without a minder present.Causing or anticipating an opponent's movement is basic to most sports and to all serious combat styles. Call it a &quot;charm&quot;, if you like, but that makes &quot;charms&quot; a commonplace in the real world. I watched several Formula 1 racing drivers use them last weekend, for example. Soccer and Rugby Football players use such &quot;powers&quot; several times in a game. A good Wide Receiver in (American) Football has to be a master of the technique. The idea that it is somehow limited to &quot;magic users&quot; would doubtless seem somewhat funny to many a sportsperson.Re. the original post: I echo&nbsp; [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] that requiring two rolls or one with an off-stat makes it very weak. You might use CHA vs. Will but as a Weapon attack (thus getting the proficiency bonus and Enhancement - both of which seem fair as weapon training ought certainly to help, and a magic weapon may also aid in some way) - one roll to both pull and damage.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 6400579, member: 27160"] If you think that any method of causing opponents to move around without using brute force to do it is "mind control" I have a recommendation: never get involved in any sort of combat, battle, physical sport or even game of "tag" without a minder present. Causing or anticipating an opponent's movement is basic to most sports and to all serious combat styles. Call it a "charm", if you like, but that makes "charms" a commonplace in the real world. I watched several Formula 1 racing drivers use them last weekend, for example. Soccer and Rugby Football players use such "powers" several times in a game. A good Wide Receiver in (American) Football has to be a master of the technique. The idea that it is somehow limited to "magic users" would doubtless seem somewhat funny to many a sportsperson. Re. the original post: I echo [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] that requiring two rolls or one with an off-stat makes it very weak. You might use CHA vs. Will but as a Weapon attack (thus getting the proficiency bonus and Enhancement - both of which seem fair as weapon training ought certainly to help, and a magic weapon may also aid in some way) - one roll to both pull and damage. [/QUOTE]

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